Damn! I love the way that episode captured the look and feel of the original Jackson trilogy, especially in regards to the epic battle scenes and the way they raised the stakes in terms of the plot and character arcs. That was excellent television. I'm really looking forward to these last two episodes.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to direwolf For This Useful Post:
What do people here think of various fan theories on Sauron?
Spoiler!
The most popular one seems to be Halbrand, but there's also the Stranger; Adar; the elf who's face is never shown at the dinner with Elrond, Durin and Gil-Galad; or the possibility that he hasn't been shown yet. (Also, possibility that there are multiple Saurons, or one shapeshifing Sauron.)
Even though the Halbrand theory people think that they have a leak that suggests this, IMO it's the least sensible of all of these options; I think there are a lot of hints in his dialogue, but nothing in his actions to suggest Sauron, which is exactly how I'd want to throw the hardcore fans a red-herring. The Stranger... I don't know, I can kinda see that possibility, especially if there's any truth to Adar claiming he killed Sauron. It would be consistent with how Gandalf returned not remembering who he was at first. I still think the Stranger being a Maiar sent by the Valar is more likely. Adar seems unlikely at this point unless he's doing a really long con. I like the guy-at-the-table theory, but it's kinda inconsequential.
I do think Sauron already being present and active in either Lindon or Eregion already is most likely, whether we've had a glimpse of him or not. My hunch is that season 2 will have much more Eregion/Lindon intrigue with Elrond at the center of trying to figure out what's going on.
So is that sword hilt that Theo found just a key to release the dam? It seemed to have the similar property of the one ring in that people long for it and have a hard time giving it up. Thought it would be more than that.
What do people here think of various fan theories on Sauron?
Spoiler!
The most popular one seems to be Halbrand, but there's also the Stranger; Adar; the elf who's face is never shown at the dinner with Elrond, Durin and Gil-Galad; or the possibility that he hasn't been shown yet. (Also, possibility that there are multiple Saurons, or one shapeshifing Sauron.)
Even though the Halbrand theory people think that they have a leak that suggests this, IMO it's the least sensible of all of these options; I think there are a lot of hints in his dialogue, but nothing in his actions to suggest Sauron, which is exactly how I'd want to throw the hardcore fans a red-herring. The Stranger... I don't know, I can kinda see that possibility, especially if there's any truth to Adar claiming he killed Sauron. It would be consistent with how Gandalf returned not remembering who he was at first. I still think the Stranger being a Maiar sent by the Valar is more likely. Adar seems unlikely at this point unless he's doing a really long con. I like the guy-at-the-table theory, but it's kinda inconsequential.
I do think Sauron already being present and active in either Lindon or Eregion already is most likely, whether we've had a glimpse of him or not. My hunch is that season 2 will have much more Eregion/Lindon intrigue with Elrond at the center of trying to figure out what's going on.
Book stuff
Spoiler!
Isn't it cannon that Sauron presents himself as a very attractive elf, and that this is how he orchestrates a lot of the stuff with getting all the kings to wear the rings of power? I kind of figured he might take numerous shapes during the course of events, but I thought that one was cannon. Maybe I'm mistaken.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
So is that sword hilt that Theo found just a key to release the dam? It seemed to have the similar property of the one ring in that people long for it and have a hard time giving it up. Thought it would be more than that.
Maybe it will be more, or maybe that aspect of it and the similarity with the ring is just supposed to draw a deeper connection between the sword and Sauron's power for viewers.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Maybe it will be more, or maybe that aspect of it and the similarity with the ring is just supposed to draw a deeper connection between the sword and Sauron's power for viewers.
I do think you're right that this is linked to Sauron's (or even Morgoth's) power and we haven't seen the end of it. Mount Doom was originally a creation of Morgoth's, so there's some evil powers here that predate even Sauron.
I'm going to throw out a totally wild theory: The dam and the sword/key were created by Morgoth, and the dam is only one of several things unlocked by the sword. Adar knew that it would take some super-powerful blade to slay Sauron, so he tracked down the blade, used it to 'kill' Sauron early in the second age. Then he stashed it in the Southlands for when he would be ready to use it to start unlocking Mordor. This took centuries, and in that time villagers moved into the region and eventually found the blade. Some essence of both Morgoth and Sauron remains on the blade.
Last edited by octothorp; 10-01-2022 at 12:31 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to octothorp For This Useful Post:
I do think you're right that this is linked to Sauron's (or even Morgoth's) power and we haven't seen the end of it. Mount Doom was originally a creation of Morgoth's, so there's some evil powers here that predate even Sauron.
I'm going to throw out a totally wild theory: The dam and the sword/key were created by Morgoth, and the dam is only one of several things unlocked by the sword. Adar knew that it would take some super-powerful blade to slay Sauron, so he tracked down the blade, used it to 'kill' Sauron early in the second age. Then he stashed it in the Southlands for when he would be ready to use it to start unlocking Mordor. This took centuries, and in that time villagers moved into the region and eventually found the blade.
That would have some symmetry with the story of the ring and how by it is come upon by some relatively feckless and unimportant mortal who is then corrupted by it into doing some evil stuff.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Isn't it cannon that Sauron presents himself as a very attractive elf, and that this is how he orchestrates a lot of the stuff with getting all the kings to wear the rings of power? I kind of figured he might take numerous shapes during the course of events, but I thought that one was cannon. Maybe I'm mistaken.
Spoiler!
Yup, you're exactly right about that, which is why I think that we haven't seen him yet. But since he's known as 'the deceiver' I think a lot of fans are expecting him to appear in a form that we as viewers don't expect, so that we're deceived as well. However, Sauron was also instrumental to the Numenor storyline. A few episodes ago, one could kinda see how they were setting up Halbrand to have the sort of influence in Numenor that Sauron has. I don't think that idea holds up as well now as it did a few weeks ago.
What do people here think of various fan theories on Sauron?
Spoiler!
The most popular one seems to be Halbrand, but there's also the Stranger; Adar; the elf who's face is never shown at the dinner with Elrond, Durin and Gil-Galad; or the possibility that he hasn't been shown yet. (Also, possibility that there are multiple Saurons, or one shapeshifing Sauron.)
Even though the Halbrand theory people think that they have a leak that suggests this, IMO it's the least sensible of all of these options; I think there are a lot of hints in his dialogue, but nothing in his actions to suggest Sauron, which is exactly how I'd want to throw the hardcore fans a red-herring. The Stranger... I don't know, I can kinda see that possibility, especially if there's any truth to Adar claiming he killed Sauron. It would be consistent with how Gandalf returned not remembering who he was at first. I still think the Stranger being a Maiar sent by the Valar is more likely. Adar seems unlikely at this point unless he's doing a really long con. I like the guy-at-the-table theory, but it's kinda inconsequential.
I do think Sauron already being present and active in either Lindon or Eregion already is most likely, whether we've had a glimpse of him or not. My hunch is that season 2 will have much more Eregion/Lindon intrigue with Elrond at the center of trying to figure out what's going on.
I think it also depends on where in the timeline the story is at right now.
I agree with your theory, but the others are plausible as well.
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
That was epic tv. Best fantasy episode since sometime in season 4 of GoT. Had some Empire Strikes Back vibes to it; the good guys/gals are losing badly, and don't have many answers.
Just blown away by that one! House of Dragons and this show have gone in opposite directions. Started off enjoying HoD more, but this is far superior now.
Slow build-up, but a worthy payoff this episode.
The Following User Says Thank You to AltaGuy For This Useful Post:
I really liked this week's episode as it has moved some major events forward and Middle Earth is now a bit more familiar.
What I didn't like was the beautiful cavalry charge; at that point they wouldn't have known about the siege of the town and were just exhausting their horses. However it did look amazing.
That was epic tv. Best fantasy episode since sometime in season 4 of GoT. Had some Empire Strikes Back vibes to it; the good guys/gals are losing badly, and don't have many answers.
Just blown away by that one! House of Dragons and this show have gone in opposite directions. Started off enjoying HoD more, but this is far superior now.
Slow build-up, but a worthy payoff this episode.
Yeah, the final visual sequence was excellent. It didn't have the emotional tension for me of a scene like Battle of the Bastards from GoT, but visually it was extremely well done and on par with anything from HBO. I would say it was movie quality for lotr. The production quality for the whole episode was impressive too. It was finally an episode where I felt I could understand where all of Amazon's money went.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
I really liked this week's episode as it has moved some major events forward and Middle Earth is now a bit more familiar.
What I didn't like was the beautiful cavalry charge; at that point they wouldn't have known about the siege of the town and were just exhausting their horses. However it did look amazing.
This will maybe sound like lore-retconning, but in some of Tolkien's writing, the horses that came from Numenor to Middle Earth were the ancestors of the Mearas line of horses that included Shadowfax. In LotR, we have Shadowfax doing a two-day straight hard ride with two riders. Whether Shadowfax is a descendent of Numenorean horses or not, Tolkien definitely intended Numenorean horses to be capable of physical feats beyond that of regular horses (like Numenoreans themselves).
Last edited by octothorp; 10-03-2022 at 05:34 AM.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to octothorp For This Useful Post:
I take it the volcano and flood is the beginning of Mordor, or the transformation of the southlands into Mordor.
Mount Doom far precedes the second age, but Tolkien can be so convoluted and confusing I think for simplicity's sake the way The Rings of Power is presenting it works better.
Hallbrand and Adar clearly have history, and the show has done a remarkable job at leading the viewer to believe one thing. I don't think Hallbrand is Sauron; I'm now leaning toward the Witch-king of Angmar or one of the nine Nazgul, if anything.
So here's my (likely wrong, but hopefully plausible) Halbrand theory:
Spoiler!
There are strong Sauron-adjacent hints to Halbrand, but it's hard to reconcile his actions (saving Galadriel, trying to get a job as a lowly blacksmith, advising the Numenoreans on going to Middle Earth to fight the orcs, encouraging Galadriel in her quest to destroy Sauron but also pulling her back from darkness), with the actions of Sauron.
I think he is set up to become a Nazgul, but more than that I think he's already had exposure to Sauron whether he knows it or not. If I was to try and make a plausible backstory for Sauron immediately prior to the known history of becoming Annatar, he would likely be testing the craft and magic necessary to create the rings of power, as well as their effect. Let's say he did so in a backwater kingdom in the Southlands, possibly forging another ring or other embued object, some sort of proto-ring. And suppose he took a talented apprentice while doing so, whether that apprentice was a commoner or a member of the royal house. The effects of the proto-ring were as Sauron intended, leading to betrayal. Somehow, the proto-ring ended up in the hands of the young apprentice, Halbrand, who still carries it in a pouch). All of this likely happened prior to his encounter with Adar. It's even possible that there could be reasons why he blames Adar for the loss that Sauron inflicted. He shares a commonality with Galadriel because they both have a loss at the hands of Sauron, so their vengeance is more alike than they know.
Like I say, this is probably wrong, but I think there's are much more creative and interesting ways to reconcile Halbrand's actions and the symbolism around him than him simply being Sauron.
So here's my (likely wrong, but hopefully plausible) Halbrand theory:
Spoiler!
There are strong Sauron-adjacent hints to Halbrand, but it's hard to reconcile his actions (saving Galadriel, trying to get a job as a lowly blacksmith, advising the Numenoreans on going to Middle Earth to fight the orcs, encouraging Galadriel in her quest to destroy Sauron but also pulling her back from darkness), with the actions of Sauron.
I think he is set up to become a Nazgul, but more than that I think he's already had exposure to Sauron whether he knows it or not. If I was to try and make a plausible backstory for Sauron immediately prior to the known history of becoming Annatar, he would likely be testing the craft and magic necessary to create the rings of power, as well as their effect. Let's say he did so in a backwater kingdom in the Southlands, possibly forging another ring or other embued object, some sort of proto-ring. And suppose he took a talented apprentice while doing so, whether that apprentice was a commoner or a member of the royal house. The effects of the proto-ring were as Sauron intended, leading to betrayal. Somehow, the proto-ring ended up in the hands of the young apprentice, Halbrand, who still carries it in a pouch). All of this likely happened prior to his encounter with Adar. It's even possible that there could be reasons why he blames Adar for the loss that Sauron inflicted. He shares a commonality with Galadriel because they both have a loss at the hands of Sauron, so their vengeance is more alike than they know.
Like I say, this is probably wrong, but I think there's are much more creative and interesting ways to reconcile Halbrand's actions and the symbolism around him than him simply being Sauron.
The Nazgul possibility is where I was leaning with him at first too. I even thought he might become the Witch-King, but I don't think he has any of the magic for that to make sense yet. I'm now more persuaded by the idea of him as King of the Dead. I do agree that his skills as a smith must be important somehow though. They made quite a point of emphasizing those skills in earlier episodes and I would expect that seed has been planted for a reason. Either way, he certainly seems set up for a character arc that sees him redeemed only to finally go bad again.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Just got caught up on the latest episode. Excellent stuff. I’m kind of over the lore issues with the show, it’s not canon anyway so I’m just enjoying it for what it is.
The Following User Says Thank You to N-E-B For This Useful Post:
