American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Nothing gets passed by either side in the US anymore. The US federal government is in a constant state of stasis because of the filibuster. The only thing either side can pass is through reconciliation. Its not a Democrat vs Republican thing. Its just the Republicans don't particularly have any big legislative asks right now so they don't care as much.

See, and that's where you're wrong, and like most Canadians, nescient and/or ambivalent to the machinations of American governance. It's just crazy how the game has changed in the past 30-40 years. I just literally gave you two links where you can see the bills that are working their way through congress and the policy formation as it happens, and how much of it is noise. This is actual real-world proof of what congress does, what policy is being worked on in which branch of government, what is being passed and by who, and the efficacy of both parties in their impact on governance. The American system is very different from that of Canadian politics, and you can't compare the two, especially from a process perspective. You look at the BIG asks and think that is how governance is impacted, which is not how it works in the United States.

Governance is changed by small changes that build to a large change. It is death by 1,000 cuts. Governance is impacted through cooperative efforts at all levels of government. Its why Republicans are so successful at what they do, they understand how to play small ball while Democrats struggle in this aspect. Republicans own state legislatures. They own local governments. They own school boards! They own everything at the grassroots level, because this is how they win the governance battle. They have established the infrastructure to help push these initiatives forward in the lobbying and think tank industries that are so influential in maintaining traction for initiatives and killing others. It is complex, it is ugly, and it beyond the understanding of the vast majority of people out there, because the parties keep this dirty little secret buried from the public's view.

So when you look at the politics of the United States you look at Washington and think that this is where the game is being played. That's the outsider view. In insider view is looking at all the other corners of the playing field and watching how that plays out. While you're focused on Matt Gaetz stonewalling in the House, I'm watching Florida politics to see what is happening there, as they are the second most influential state in the union. While you're watching the DeVos talk about killing the DoE I'm watching the Texas Board of Education influence schoolbooks because this is the channel to affecting cultural change. While you're watching the Democrats attempt to move a BIG idea like an infrastructure bill, I'm watching state and local governments completely poison the well of public opinion that makes those initiatives impossible to move forward. While you're watching the clowns in congress struggle to come to even basic agreement on the language of issues like un control or immigration I'm watching ALEC draft legislation, present it in multiple states, and have it codified in state law, making federal mandates useless. The political game in the US is multi-dimensional chess and what happens in Washington is such a small part of what is going on. There is so much more misdirection and noise that you have to learn to look past. The representatives in Washington are there to make noise and fund raise so they keep the coffers full and these special interests can work their magic and get the real policy implementation done.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Dion

POS Matt Gaetz is at it again

https://twitter.com/user/status/1551585684196139008

You're giving him exactly what he wants. He doesn't say #### like that off the cuff, it's well thought out to 1. rile up his base of ignorant bigots and 2. create soundbites that inflame democrats who continuously put his name in the headlines. In normal circumstances stuff like that might get him censured or even kicked out of his party, but Republicans stopped playing by the rulebook long ago. Hell he's currently under investigation for underage sex trafficking but that doesn't bother his party leaders in the slightest. There's nothing a Republican can say or do that loses support of their base, short of agreeing with liberals on anything. So they're free to say the most vile #### imaginable and let the Democrats froth all over themselves instead of doing any actual work to change things

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GGG

Wouldn’t we like to know if given unlimited power what would a group do?

It’s like Jason Kenny, he sucks at implementing policy to move Alberta further right then he would if he were competent. That doesn’t make him less fat right it makes him not good at his jobs.

Outcomes in the US are even more limited because of the number of checks and balances and because the Republicans are very effective at preventing change. So basing policy outcome as your sole measure of left vs right is flawed as it’s unable to distinguish between policy and competence at implementing policy.

This isn’t an either/or situation it’s a combination of both.

Quoted because I think thats the most succinct description of Jason Kenney I've seen in a while.

"Fat right and not good at his jobs."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Educated white progressives* claiming to speak for minorities isn’t doing Democrats any favours. Working class Blacks and Hispanics aren’t much different from working class whites on issues like crime, school admissions, and immigration. Local elections in Democrat strongholds are seeing progressives turfed in favour of candidates running on platforms of increasing police presence and abandoning racial schools quotas and doctrinaire educational programs.

But maybe psycnet could offer some examples of the kinds of policies he thinks would win popular support with working class voters. Because raising your fist in righteous fury at the status quo looks good on social media but doesn’t accomplish anything in the real world.

* Progressives are the whitest group in the Democrat coalition.

If someone wants a real world example of this, look at the new district attorney in San Francisco.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1546884621891211264

https://twitter.com/user/status/1546851809884618754

[Bill Bumface]

If things like this are a pendulum, Chesa Boudin swung the thing right out of the display case and shattered the glass.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

If things like this are a pendulum, Chesa Boudin swung the thing right out of the display case and shattered the glass.

Yeah, I was watching a few news articles about some of the issues in San Francisco (now shortened to just Frisco because the locals love that!) and its slowly sliding into the 7th circle of Hell.

Cities like Seattle and Frisco have to start coming up with solutions because their laissez-fair attitude on certain crimes is starting to come home to roost.

Like you said, the pendulum. I'm not someone who subscribes too much to the theory that harsh and Draconian punishments and sentences are the way to go, but the hands-off attitude isnt working either.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah, I was watching a few news articles about some of the issues in San Francisco (now shortened to just Frisco because the locals love that!) and its slowly sliding into the 7th circle of Hell.

Cities like Seattle and Frisco have to start coming up with solutions because their laissez-fair attitude on certain crimes is starting to come home to roost.

Like you said, the pendulum. I'm not someone who subscribes too much to the theory that harsh and Draconian punishments and sentences are the way to go, but the hands-off attitude isnt working either.

Both approaches are doomed to fail when housing and affordability are such ####shows.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Both approaches are doomed to fail when housing and affordability are such ####shows.

Of course theres a multitude of other factors too, but its not like California is a bastion of affordability generally.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

Of course theres a multitude of other factors too, but its not like California is a bastion of affordability generally.

Also sounds like this might be a bit of a Fox News effect, where the media has created a perception that isn't in-line with reality. Violent crime overall has been falling in San Francisco according to this study:

http://www.cjcj.org/news/13312

SAN FRANCISCO – June 2, 2022 – A publication released today by the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice compares crime trends during Sacramento County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert’s conservative prosecutorial term in office with those of San Francisco’s progressive prosecutors (George Gascon and Chesa Boudin) over a key period in California’s criminal justice reform era (2014-2021). DA Schubert has positioned herself as the state’s leading “tough-on-crime” candidate as she criticizes San Francisco’s progressive DA, Chesa Boudin, and seeks to unseat California’s reform-minded Attorney General, Rob Bonta. Yet DA Schubert’s rhetoric and policies have not delivered lower crime or falling crime rates. In fact, San Francisco has sustained larger crime declines overall and achieved lower rates of violent crime than the City of Sacramento since 2014.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Also sounds like this might be a bit of a Fox News effect, where the media has created a perception that isn't in-line with reality. Violent crime overall has been falling in San Francisco according to this study:

http://www.cjcj.org/news/13312

I dont know, I wouldnt go so far as to categorize it as 'fake news' per se, and its entirely possible that 'Violent Crime' actually is going down.

The reports I was looking at were largely more about looting, property damage, etc. because these are the kinds of crime that the DA hasnt been aggressively prosecuting.

Where groups of people are walking into stores, stealing whatever they want and walking out. The staff are instructed not to interfere because theres no sense in them getting hurt and since the DA isnt prosecuting a lot of these crimes the Cops dont even bother arresting them if they even show up at all.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont know, I wouldnt go so far as to categorize it as 'fake news' per se, and its entirely possible that 'Violent Crime' actually is going down.

The reports I was looking at were largely more about looting, property damage, etc. because these are the kinds of crime that the DA hasnt been aggressively prosecuting.

Where groups of people are walking into stores, stealing whatever they want and walking out. The staff are instructed not to interfere because theres no sense in them getting hurt and since the DA isnt prosecuting a lot of these crimes the Cops dont even bother arresting them if they even show up at all.

Well yeah, but it becomes a question of how many tax dollars do you want to put into policing and jailing non-violent criminals. Sounds like the San Francisco approach is saving the state money as well as correlating with a reduction in violent crime.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well yeah, but it becomes a question of how many tax dollars do you want to put into policing and jailing non-violent criminals. Sounds like the San Francisco approach is saving the state money as well as correlating with a reduction in violent crime.

Until people start shootings shop lifters as if the state won’t protect people eventually people will protect themselves.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GGG

Until people start shootings shop lifters as if the state won’t protect people eventually people will protect themselves.

Well this is the thing, just because the crimes arent 'violent' doesnt mean they're not important.

The fabric tends to tear at the weakest elements but eventually the whole thing will unravel. If you treat property crime as insignificant and just ignore it, it will eventually become significant.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well this is the thing, just because the crimes arent 'violent' doesnt mean they're not important.

The fabric tends to tear at the weakest elements but eventually the whole thing will unravel. If you treat property crime as insignificant and just ignore it, it will eventually become significant.

I think its hard for us in Canada to understand the US and their crime. They send so many people to prison/jail that its hard to say if what they consider 'weak on crime' - is relatively normal to us.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by GGG

Until people start shootings shop lifters as if the state won’t protect people eventually people will protect themselves.

Hasn't most San Francisco been gentrified to the point that most of the mom and pop shops have been replaced by big chains/corporations? A cashier making minimum wage at a CVS isn't going to start shooting shoplifters.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Both approaches are doomed to fail when housing and affordability are such ####shows.

*groan*

There are countless places in the U.S. where housing is affordable, very affordable. Save up for a bus ticket and go to one of them. You don't have to live in San Francisco, and you certainly don't have to commit crimes to live a decent life in this country.

Utterly clueless.

[opendoor]

Sure, income inequality, housing affordability, substance abuse, and crime rates aren't complex and interrelated issues. People just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and jump on a bus and move halfway across the country to places where they know no one and have no prospects.

I mean, it would be great if social problems were solved that easily, but obviously they're not.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Sure, income inequality, housing affordability, substance abuse, and crime rates aren't complex and interrelated issues. People just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and jump on a bus and move halfway across the country to places where they know no one and have no prospects.

I mean, it would be great if social problems were solved that easily, but obviously they're not.

I won't bother with the substance abuse, because that's a completely separate issue.

However, in Kansas City the unemployment rate is 2.4%. The average home cost is $230 K. Tell me that someone can't make a decent life there if they wanted to.

No, everyone wants to live in the cool cities, and they suffer because of it. It's stupid. There's plenty in this country if you know where to look.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I won't bother with the substance abuse, because that's a completely separate issue.

However, in Kansas City the unemployment rate is 2.4%. The average home cost is $230 K. Tell me that someone can't make a decent life there if they wanted to.

No, everyone wants to live in the cool cities, and they suffer because of it. It's stupid. There's plenty in this country if you know where to look.

Do you really think it's people wanting to live in a "cool city" who are responsible for high property crime rates in San Francisco? Or is it perhaps (in part) desperate people with varying degrees of vulnerability who've been pushed to the margins in recent years because of unaffordability. The less affordable a place is for people earning local incomes, the more risk there is for people going crises, particularly ones that can impact income (e.g. divorce, family losing a parent, etc.), to end up homeless or underhoused.

But yeah, I'm sure all levels of governments would be happy to know that homelessness and high crime rates can be solved with some bus tickets.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But yeah, I'm sure all levels of governments would be happy to know that homelessness and high crime rates can be solved with some bus tickets.

I mean...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1552025520820338690


As the comments say: sounds like a camp, with a concentration of people...