To Calgary | By Johnny Gaudreau

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Based on one 3rd hand account (at best) which doesn't get anywhere close to specifying the nature of the supposed ultimatum - which also [allegedly] came roughly 12 hrs before the deadline (not really time to mitigate either way)...


Why are reporters refusing to report that and instead just hedging with innuendo?

If Johnny was so unethical, why did the Flames try to do business with him again just 14-20 hrs after his [alleged] dastardly reneg?

Well, as was discussed yesterday, it's not just one report any more. Everything others have reported supports it.

And I haven't heard any new Flames offer after the UFA date being confirmed, and really it goes against what Treliving said in his presser. He said the door was closed. And looked pissed when he said it. But even if it is, sometimes you bite your tongue and try to continue to negotiate even when the other side is dicking around. Because you have an obligation to try.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are leaving out that he was the one who asked for the number. And making up reasons that didn't exist (like a better offer). So in your example:

Employer: So how much do you want to work for us?
You: 100K/year
Employer: OK, we'll give you that.
You: Nah.

Somehow in your world this is the employer not knowing you were going to turn them down.

I have had that happen before to be honest - in both directions in terms of retaining employees or trying to hire new employees.

I've seen employees who have been offered a better offer and then we match...and they decide to leave because they wanted a change (in this case the person wanted to come back 8 months later).

And we've made offers before that met the person's asking price and in the end they said they were no longer interested and decided to stay where they were.

It likely happens every day in other industries...just more magnified when it's an NHL franchise and there are only 32 teams in the mix.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

If true, the fact that Calgary agreed to his demands followed by his camp going silent for several hours while the Flames were ready to ink the deal and make the announcement shows extreme bad faith.

What if it went something like:

- Johnny wants to re-sign here
- Gross requests Calgary’s final offer to take to the Gaudreau camp
- After evaluating, Johnny’s camp gets cold feet, family decides the distance is just too far and the extra $ doesn’t make up the difference
- After free agency period has started, Johnny still considers circling back to 7 year with Flames
- Ultimately signs with Blue Jackets

Would this be considered bad faith?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They supposedly offered 8. As a starting position. Gaudreau decided to sit it out.

I actually thought you were talking Coleman. If you were talking Neal, sure. Who doesn't think that was a mistake (not an overpayment though if he'd panned out to his normal production). Put another way, maybe in searching for examples of overpayment, let's not go back to 5 off seasons ago.

I was not saying Neal was an overpayment at the time (although much riskier than Gaudreau would have been last season). I am saying even if Neal had continued on as a 45-48 point guy for the entire term of the contract, he was still signed at 1.2% per 0.1 PPG. If you put Johnny at that range for the 0.85 PPG for the previous two years (the worst PPG you can get for Johnny, but you used it so I will too) that has you using 10.2% of the cap on Johnny (around 8.4 million a year). Unless anyone actually thinks that Johnny will drop to a 0.5 PPG player in Columbus, they are going to get a pretty good contract. Flames would have too, even if they had overpaid him last summer.

Regardless of how you slice it up, the Flames did not sign Gaudreau last summer. The Flames have almost no young assets in the pipeline because they have traded so many picks, so it is not like there are a bunch of young players coming up to take his spot. It just seems really weird to me, a team that allegedly has a mandate to compete every single year and cannot rebuild, to leave a key piece (or the key piece) of their ability to compete each year to chance. If the mandate really is to compete every year, one would think there would have been incredibly flexibility to sign the guy who would likely allow you to do that for the next 6 years minimum.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by direwolf

"Not every player was a five-six, 130-pound USHLer when one of the NHL’s most storied franchises took a chance on him. "


I've been a Flames fan my entire life and I'll love this team until the day I die. But storied franchise? Lol. Sure, ok. Full marks to Team Gaudreau for trying to butter us up with a flowery sentence like that though. That's good stuff.

oh we've got plenty of stories alright, if you include the bad ones then what he said is pretty accurate.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah we don't know what the asks or offers were last year...but Flames should have been comfortable with $8M-$9M last year.

It's easy to get caught up in the negotiations in the moment but really anything above $9.5M for 8 years for a 29 year old winger was a pretty big overpayment.

Look at Gaudreau's 82 point pace season by season for his career

14/15: 65
15/16: 81
16-17: 70
17-18: 86
18-19: 99
19-20: 68
20-21: 72
21-22: 115
Career: 83 points per 82 games. (This was 79 points per 82 before his career year last year).

So really this season was a big outlier to be honest, and if you give him $10.5M you are paying for what was an outlier season.

Looking at his career as a whole Gaudreau is likely more of a guy that's 75 points in a bad year, and more realistically 95 points in a good year.

So depending on the ask last year it really does feel like the Flames should have been willing to lock up Gaudreau for around $8M per season in the 2021 offseason.

However we don't know what the asks were. Maybe Flames did offer $8M and Gaudreau wanted $9.5M last year, and I could see why the Flames wouldn't have wanted to do that.

In hindsight it does feel like a miss but things are always easier with the benefit of hindsight.

Like you say - hindsight makes it obvious, but last year you are a guy hitting his late 20s and showing a decline. He's also a guy who from we know has never had the greatest diet and work out habits. Guys like that can decline fast and young.

Dany Heatley comes to mind. He went from a 50 goal/100 point guy at 25/26, declined a bit to a 40 goal/PPG guy at 27-29 and then was done as NHLer at 33.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I have had that happen before to be honest - in both directions in terms of retaining employees or trying to hire new employees.

I've seen employees who have been offered a better offer and then we match...and they decide to leave because they wanted a change (in this case the person wanted to come back 8 months later).

And we've made offers before that met the person's asking price and in the end they said they were no longer interested and decided to stay where they were.

It likely happens every day in other industries...just more magnified when it's an NHL franchise and there are only 32 teams in the mix.

Yeah this happens all the time when hiring. Just lower stakes since in the vast majority of cases you can find a similar replacement that you can't in the NHL.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah we don't know what the asks or offers were last year...but Flames should have been comfortable with $8M-$9M last year.

It's easy to get caught up in the negotiations in the moment but really anything above $9.5M for 8 years for a 29 year old winger was a pretty big overpayment.

Look at Gaudreau's 82 point pace season by season for his career

14/15: 65
15/16: 81
16-17: 70
17-18: 86
18-19: 99
19-20: 68
20-21: 72
21-22: 115
Career: 83 points per 82 games. (This was 79 points per 82 before his career year last year).

So really this season was a big outlier to be honest, and if you give him $10.5M you are paying for what was an outlier season.

Looking at his career as a whole Gaudreau is likely more of a guy that's 75 points in a bad year, and more realistically 95 points in a good year.

So depending on the ask last year it really does feel like the Flames should have been willing to lock up Gaudreau for around $8M per season in the 2021 offseason.

However we don't know what the asks were. Maybe Flames did offer $8M and Gaudreau wanted $9.5M last year, and I could see why the Flames wouldn't have wanted to do that.

In hindsight it does feel like a miss but things are always easier with the benefit of hindsight.

This is why you need good management and good scouting. You can’t just always rely on what happened, you have to be able to forecast and predict. The best GMs in this business get ahead of things.

Yes, there would have been some risk to signing Johnny to big cash in 2021 after a couple down years, but management also has to understand that there’s risk in waiting as he could excel the next season, cost way more and be inches from unrestricted free agency. Management chose the latter and it cost them their franchise player.

If it was me, the risk of letting him touch the UFA market would’ve been too fearful; especially with all the background noise of him wanting to go back out east. If you have a chance to squash that opportunity and re-sign him, you gotta do it.

[Otto29]

I am sad he moved on but I understand. It makes sense to me. A player like that can make decisions like this. He is a human being with family and a future to think of. He wasn't to live in the US closer to his family.

Good Luck Johnny

[GirlySports]

Except NHL GMs have given ridiculous FA contracts for outlier seasons. Gaudreau probably thought he was getting 11 on the open market.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are leaving out that he was the one who asked for the number. And making up reasons that didn't exist (like a better offer). So in your example:

Employer: So how much do you want to work for us?
You: 100K/year
Employer: OK, we'll give you that.
You: Nah.

Somehow in your world this is the employer not knowing you were going to turn them down.

I understand in Johnny situation, it’s sour taste

But in real life, it happens all the time. I have sat on both sides of the table

As an employer, that’s why you have deadlines and backups. Any offer sent out is risky.

Heck I had people that accepted the offer and didn’t show up. And I am talking about professional high paying jobs not labor.

[Coach]

His signatures not on a Flames contract so I find it hard to really care at all. Hope Columbus solves the family stuff for him. Also hope they lose in perpetuity.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I have had that happen before to be honest - in both directions in terms of retaining employees or trying to hire new employees.

I've seen employees who have been offered a better offer and then we match...and they decide to leave because they wanted a change (in this case the person wanted to come back 8 months later).

And we've made offers before that met the person's asking price and in the end they said they were no longer interested and decided to stay where they were.

It likely happens every day in other industries...just more magnified when it's an NHL franchise and there are only 32 teams in the mix.

It's a bit different in industry, true. But add a deadline in, with limited opportunity to pivot and no easy replacement. But there's no "other offer" here, only change. And reportedly a demand. This is the big thing.

I'm not saying it never happens, but one of my best friends happens to be a recruiter, so he brokers jobs all the time like this, with asks, and offers and acceptances. It's pretty rare.

In hockey I have never heard of a demand being met, and then a contract not being signed.

[dino7c]

Was he chillin when he had that written for him

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

This is a pretty massive fluff piece, I understand that family is important to everyone and that a year plus without being able to cross borders to see them would be difficult for anyone, money or not. That he landed in Columbus though makes that ring a little hollow though - especially after stating his apparent intention to sign in Calgary.

He is a special talent who made the Flames a better team for the past 8 seasons and it is hard to lose a player of his caliber as it is an all but impossible hole to fill. That said in 3-4 years time having an aging player making 10 million plus a season may be a hard pill for a team to swallow.

[tvp2003]

I'm glad if the letter provides a bit of context, if not closure for some Flames fans. Personally, there wasn't much in the letter that wasn't already said, reported, or heavily speculated based on how things apparently went down. But that this was a personal decision for personal/family reasons I don't think was ever in doubt.

As for the piece about him possibly re-signing last year, I'm glad some had the foresight to predict how successful they would be this year as I sure didn't. Putting up points when your team is out of the playoff race is never a great benchmark, and after two "average seasons" (which came after two poor playoff showings), I don't blame Treliving for only offering $8Mx8 (if that is what in fact happened).

[Phil Russell]

Johnny wanted to move east for family reasons. And he had reached that point in his career where he finally had some control over where he played. All understandable. But don't think for a minute that he wasn't being advised to string Calgary along to put pressure on his preferred destination teams and maximize their offer. I don't believe for a second that there was any other motive for keeping Calgary in play. In the end, it didn't turn out to be that good of a play as Columbus was his best offer, but he got a lot of what he wanted. The Flames, the fans, his legacy, that was none of his concern. He played very hard ball, and his dear Calgary letter, while certainly full of some truths, is really just damage control.

[pylon]

I get it, 100%.

My dad had his Aorta and Aortic valve replaced last year. He's 81. He had about a 10% chance of dying on the table, and almost did. I sat in the Foothills cardiac ward for 3 hours every night after work for close to a month trying to get him on his feet, walking, and hopefully walking out of the hospital.... and he finally did.

My perspective changed immensely. My dad needed me. My mom wasn't able to give him the tough love, tell the same stupid jokes, and he was afraid to cry or share his fears in front of her.... he's still the man of the house you know.

I am here for my folks, until there isn't folks to be here for. No promotion or raise would change my mind on that, I am comfortable enough. And Johnny just did the reverse, and I praise him for that.

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want "Oh... it's just a couple hours travel time by plane." No it's not. Driving is an option... it's the equivalent of driving to about Regina. Customs aren't an issue. Family emergencies are a 1 hour regional flight with no customs. For a very rich man like Johnny, health care for his family and children is vastly superior. If family is the focus, there are 100's of reasons to leave, and very few to stay.

It takes a very committed and grounded man to not only walk away from around 20 million dollars, and either pen, or allow someone to write an article like that on his behalf.

All the best to Johnny, I don't wish him any ill will.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Phil Russell

Johnny wanted to move east for family reasons. And he had reached that point in his career where he finally had some control over where he played. All understandable. But don't think for a minute that he wasn't being advised to string Calgary along to put pressure on his preferred destination teams and maximize their offer. I don't believe for a second that there was any other motive for keeping Calgary in play. In the end, it didn't turn out to be that good of a play as Columbus was his best offer, but he got a lot of what he wanted. The Flames, the fans, his legacy, that was none of his concern. He played very hard ball, and his dear Calgary letter, while certainly full of some truths, is really just damage control.

The thing is though...why do all of that for leverage and then throw all that leverage away.

Johnny didn't seem to leverage the Flames $10.5M offer at all in his negotiations - or else he's not signing for $9.7M.

If you're trying to do it for leverage your agent isn't going to the media and saying "The Flames did all they could and in the end this was a family decision"

He would have said "the Flames didn't offer enough money so we are going to free agency".

The whole stringing along the Flames for leverage thing makes no sense when you look at what actually happened and what was said before he even signed in Columbus.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The thing is though...why do all of that for leverage and then throw all that leverage away.

Johnny didn't seem to leverage the Flames $10.5M offer at all in his negotiations - or else he's not signing for $9.7M.

If you're trying to do it for leverage your agent isn't going to the media and saying "The Flames did all they could and in the end this was a family decision"

He would have said "the Flames didn't offer enough money so we are going to free agency".

The whole stringing along the Flames for leverage thing makes no sense when you look at what actually happened and what was said before he even signed in Columbus.

It makes sense if he thought he was leveraging to get more on Wednesday but it never materialized. Overplayed his hand or misread the room.

He only signed for 9.7 in Columbus because it was the highest left.