Post Mortem : What happens now?

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

God, self inflicted injury because he punched someone’s helmet and messed his hand up.

And again someone misses the point about the Avs.

Yes because he was so successful previously in the playoffs that we could have expected greatness had he not injured his hand.

I'm not missing anything. The Avs previous failures came after the first round, they didn't implode and show 0 push back when things got hard. If memory serves me correct, the Flames got swept by Anaheim one year, then lost 4 straight after winning game 1 to the Avs, lost 3 straight to Dallas in the bubble, then this year lost 4 straight to the Oilers. The core has a horrible propensity to disappear in adverse moments against quality playoff opponents.

That is not the Avs of the past years. So yes in my view its completely different.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Yes because he was so successful previously in the playoffs that we could have expected greatness had he not injured his hand.

I'm not missing anything. The Avs previous failures came after the first round, they didn't implode and show 0 push back when things got hard. If memory serves me correct, the Flames got swept by Anaheim one year, then lost 4 straight after winning game 1 to the Avs, lost 3 straight to Dallas in the bubble, then this year lost 4 straight to the Oilers. The core has a horrible propensity to disappear in adverse moments against quality playoff opponents.

That is not the Avs of the past years. So yes in my view its completely different.

Dallas this year was a quality opponent. Look up their record with Oettinger.

But the point was not that. It was in response to someone saying that the Avs were obviously a better core because they had gone deep in the POs. What I said was if that is the evidence, it didn’t exist until just this year. It took the Avs core a while. It might take the Flames a while.

And adversity? Last year they went out to a quick 2-0 lead over Vegas and then crumbled pretty easily IMO.

And yes, Tkachuk’s injury was self inflicted, which was the only thing I said about him.

[PuckSlap]

Guys. We got beat by the oilers. Wtf? Doesn’t anyone want to try and take the first step and admit that? It’s not a good thing to be beat by anyone. But the ####ing oilers? Wow

[Poe969]

With teams like the Avs, or lightning a few years ago, when they got knocked out of the playoffs it was a bit of a surprise. They were really good teams with all the right pieces and it was a big deal when they went out. That's not the Flames. The Flames are probably the best "good team" but not quite an elite team, they're just not at that stage and i think they're only a couple pieces away from becoming an elite team. The issue is getting those pieces isn't really possible unless you draft them and they're really only at the top of the draft (smallest chance to get them other than top 3-5 picks).

The Flames need an elite, play driving, scoring C who can put the team on their back.

They also need a legitimate #1 D who can control games. Today's NHL is controlled by good, fast puck moving D.

It would really help if at least one of those 2 pieces was on an ELC. They also need more players being underpaid than overpaid.

[MrMike]

31 other teams want an elite play driving scoring C and legitimate puck controlling number 1 defenceman on ELC contracts.

Treliving would be the worlds greatest magician to be able to pull another rabbit (fox) out of his hat.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Poe969

With teams like the Avs, or lightning a few years ago, when they got knocked out of the playoffs it was a bit of a surprise. They were really good teams with all the right pieces and it was a big deal when they went out. That's not the Flames. The Flames are probably the best "good team" but not quite an elite team, they're just not at that stage and i think they're only a couple pieces away from becoming an elite team. The issue is getting those pieces isn't really possible unless you draft them and they're really only at the top of the draft (smallest chance to get them other than top 3-5 picks).

The Flames need an elite, play driving, scoring C who can put the team on their back.

They also need a legitimate #1 D who can control games. Today's NHL is controlled by good, fast puck moving D.

It would really help if at least one of those 2 pieces was on an ELC. They also need more players being underpaid than overpaid.

No problem.

To Philly : Matthew Tkachuk
To LA : Noah Hanifin
To Calgary : Ivan Provonov, Bobby Brink, Alex Turcotte, Philly 1st 2023, LA 1st 2023

Instant rebuild.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

No problem.

To Philly : Matthew Tkachuk
To LA : Noah Hanifin
To Calgary : Ivan Provonov, Bobby Brink, Alex Turcotte, Philly 1st 2023, LA 1st 2023

Instant rebuild.

Lol...ok

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by PuckSlap

Guys. We got beat by the oilers. Wtf? Doesn’t anyone want to try and take the first step and admit that? It’s not a good thing to be beat by anyone. But the ####ing oilers? Wow

Yeah, but it was a hard fought 7 game series. One for the ages.

Right?


Please, someone tell me it was a hard fought 7 games....


Nah, the Flames got stomped, somehow, by a team with no goaltending, precious little in the way of defense, and some really fast forwards.

I don't mind continuing with this core (because other options are worse or risky), but the idea that this team is a contender physically, or maybe more importantly mentally.... to me that's nuts. It's a good team. But nowhere near cup winning as is.

Losing to the Oilers sucked. And these two series showed that the Flames need speed and finish, a lot more than they have. Whatever Markstrom's issues against the Oilers were need to be addressed (tiredness, over-awedness, terrible defensive breakdowns, a physical thing).

It'll be more of the same next year, and that's cool, we've seen far worse Flames teams than this for 20 years.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Nah, the Flames got stomped,

Stomped isn't the word I'd use. Game 3 was the only game they didn't have a chance of winning. They choked it away which is unfortunately one of the things they're famous for.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Stomped isn't the word I'd use. Game 3 was the only game they didn't have a chance of winning. They choked it away which is unfortunately one of the things they're famous for.

Yeah, the Flames beat themselves.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Dallas this year was a quality opponent. Look up their record with Oettinger.

But the point was not that. It was in response to someone saying that the Avs were obviously a better core because they had gone deep in the POs. What I said was if that is the evidence, it didn’t exist until just this year. It took the Avs core a while. It might take the Flames a while.

And adversity? Last year they went out to a quick 2-0 lead over Vegas and then crumbled pretty easily IMO.

And yes, Tkachuk’s injury was self inflicted, which was the only thing I said about him.

Gio, listen, i'm not trying to squabble with you. Based on what I know from my experience on this forum, you are a loyal and knowledgable flames fan. I probably come across as a very negative and critical, which at the end of the day is ok to me, we are both on here sharing our opinion about the team we support. Technically your original rebuttal against a poster saying the Avs went far in the playoffs is probably correct, the 2nd round isn't far. This team and core maybe figures it out and proves me wrong, but you cant honestly look at both teams playoff struggles and the games and say its the same thing, unfortunately the criticism about the Flames after elimination is around the core and their inability, for the Avs, its very different in my opinion.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, the Flames beat themselves.

Absolutely they did. If they had stuck to their usual defensive/high-pressure forecheck stystem that won them the division and made them one of the top teams in the league, that series against the Oilers likely goes 7 games. Instead they tried to adjust their game to a loosey goosey, run & gun river hockey style to try and match the Oilers' stupid brand of hockey, and it lost them the series. The Flames aren't used to playing that way, whereas the Oilers thrive on it.

That series was eerily similar to the Avs series in 2019. Flames lost their composure and ended up trying to trade chances with a faster, more offensive-minded team, and it cost them. Sutter has said it all along. Calgary doesn't have the horses to play that style. Instead they have to win by committee with everybody chipping in and sticking to a structured system, and they obviously didn't do that in either of those series. An injury-riddled Kings team took the Oilers to 7 games doing exactly what Sutter preaches, but in the end just didn't have the offence needed to win.

We know this team can beat the Oilers. They won 3 in a row against them near the end of the regular season as well as game 1 of the playoffs. But only one of those games could be called a typical Flames-style suffocating defensive win (the 3-1 win on March 7th). When they maintain their composure and stick to their system, guys like McLotteryball and MacKinnon aren't as effective and kinda disappear throughout the game. We saw the Flames do this against both of these teams this past season. They just need to figure out a way to translate that to the post season.

Flames took a big step with their series win over Dallas. Next step is to learn how to stick to their game plan against every team and treat every game the same, whether their opponent has a generational superstar or not. If they can get more consistent in that area and get tougher mentally, I think they have what it takes to go on a deeper run next season. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it took a few seasons for Colorado's core to get over that mental hump and get to where they are. Hopefully the Flames are on a similar path.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Gio, listen, i'm not trying to squabble with you. Based on what I know from my experience on this forum, you are a loyal and knowledgable flames fan. I probably come across as a very negative and critical, which at the end of the day is ok to me, we are both on here sharing our opinion about the team we support. Technically your original rebuttal against a poster saying the Avs went far in the playoffs is probably correct, the 2nd round isn't far. This team and core maybe figures it out and proves me wrong, but you cant honestly look at both teams playoff struggles and the games and say its the same thing, unfortunately the criticism about the Flames after elimination is around the core and their inability, for the Avs, its very different in my opinion.

Thing is - their core was questioned by their fans and media.

https://www.the-rink.com/four-things...x-next-season/

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/1...n-suggestions/

But anyway, the team either rides this core or rebuilds. There’s no trade or signing that’s going to switch over the core into a winner. And as Tampa and the Avs do prove, even if you draft 1OA it can be 8-10 years before you get any results. Or you can be Buffalo/Edmonton and have nothing to show for it at all.

[TheSquatch]

We've had 8 years or so of Gaudreau, that's enough track record to be "evidence". He wasn't a problem in the playoffs, but he didn't tilt the ice either.

It's not Gaudreau we need more out of, it's everyone else (maybe outside of Backlund).

Is it possible to get more out of Lindholm and Tkachuk? They are gonna have to. Because if you are relying on Mangiapane/Backlund/Coleman(Toffoli?) for a lot of goals, good luck.

I thought the Avs neutralized the Oilers carry-and-strike quite effectively (you could see a high forechecker push McDavid outside and a secondary checker waiting to pinch him). Flames did not. Coaching problem? Was Sutter too set in his ways to make actual adjustments? I have no idea. But the Flames didn't "beat themselves", they got beat by fast strike offense. Outskated and frankly out-talented.

If Lindholm and Tkachuck and Mange and someone else, Toffoli hopefully, step up more yet, and the defense isn't totally re-arranged by injury... they're a better team next year. Sure. And maybe Monahan comes back good as new. Things could be better next year in a bunch of ways. But I'm not sure it's an expectation. Rather, I think all the evidence points to the Flames being a team of average speed and average size, and they have had trouble with bigger, faster teams, and they will continue to have trouble with bigger, faster teams.

[GioforPM]

IMO, if the Flames are able to defend McDavid but just didn’t do the things they had to in order to accomplish it, yeah, they beat themselves. If they just don’t have the players capable of doing that, they were in over their heads.

I thought (a) the Flames didn’t play good team defence and checking and (b) they didn’t play their normal offensive game either. Tanev being either out or at 50% affected this a lot. The top line just didn’t play their normal cycle. It looked a lot like the one and done stuff we saw under Ward.

I agree they need more team speed. It’s a huge hole in the game of Tkachuk and they feel it all through the forward lineup (the D is decent speed wise).

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IMO, if the Flames are able to defend McDavid but just didn’t do the things they had to in order to accomplish it, yeah, they beat themselves. If they just don’t have the players capable of doing that, they were in over their heads.

I thought (a) the Flames didn’t play good team defence and checking and (b) they didn’t play their normal offensive game either. Tanev being either out or at 50% affected this a lot. The top line just didn’t play their normal cycle. It looked a lot like the one and done stuff we saw under Ward.

I agree they need more team speed. It’s a huge hole in the game of Tkachuk and they feel it all through the forward lineup (the D is decent speed wise).

Tanev being out was certainly a big factor. In retrospect, the Flames playoff chances ended when Tanev got that injury. That was a critical hole they weren't able to fill.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Tanev being out was certainly a big factor. In retrospect, the Flames playoff chances ended when Tanev got that injury. That was a critical hole they weren't able to fill.

That plus they didn’t check up ice as well. Calgary needed better pressure on the transition game of Edmonton, who lives off the rush. Edmonton’s Dmen suck. Calgary’s forwards didn’t do a good job of checking, disrupting and delaying the breakouts. It’s how Calgary played all year and they didn’t accomplish it against Edmonton.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Thing is - their core was questioned by their fans and media.

https://www.the-rink.com/four-things...x-next-season/

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/1...n-suggestions/

But anyway, the team either rides this core or rebuilds. There’s no trade or signing that’s going to switch over the core into a winner. And as Tampa and the Avs do prove, even if you draft 1OA it can be 8-10 years before you get any results. Or you can be Buffalo/Edmonton and have nothing to show for it at all.

I'm not questioning what fans and media were saying about the teams core. I'm questioning the fashion in which the core of each team has preformed and tackled adversity in the playoffs. I feel its different.

Agreed that management needs to assess things and decide one way or another if this team can get it done in the playoffs and make decisions based on that sole purpose. Its tough to tweak the supporting cast and get the desired results if the core doesn't have it in them. In my opinion we are in a tough spot, because I think we have the elements from a core prespective (Johnny, Lindholm), but a big piece of that core lacks in my opinion (Tkachuk) and when you factor in what he's going to demand $ wise, its going to really hurt the team. If we could get away with 6/7 with him it would be very different, but at 9/10, thats going to hurt us in the long run. Maybe i'll be wrong, lets see.

[dino7c]

The .850 goaltending is what did the Flames in mostly IMO..stomped? 4 of 5 games were tied in the third.

And let's be real the Flames won game 5 and got jobbed.

It's a fine line, both the Oilers and Lightning were a shot away from losing in game 6 of round one

[Flamesfan05]

Yup. Thanks Markstrom. Your goaltending has to win close games AND inspire confidence

He did none.