Post Mortem : What happens now?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Vladar, Gudbranson, Carpenter, Zadorov, and Jarnkrok all walk because the Flames won't be able to afford them.

Vladar has another year.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Vladar has another year.

My mistake. That's even better...he's a great backup for league min

[AT77]

First and foremost, Toffoli & Jarnkrok were terrible trades. I said it on here when Treliving made those trades and I was absolutely ridiculed by most of this board. I called the Toffoli trade a waste of a 1st round pick and certain users on here called that a ridiculous take. I was told that Toffoli was on a 44-goal pace last year and that there’s more to hockey than scoring and how Toffoli contributes far more to winning than someone like Patrick Laine, who I brought up as someone who is actually worth a 1st, because Toffoli isn’t. He may have been on a 44-goal pace last year but he’s never been on that type of pace before, and was only on a 20-goal pace this year prior to the trade. He’s the absolute definition of inconsistency. He’s the type of player that will score in 8 straight then go completely ghost mode for the next 15. He scored 8 goals in his first 13 games with the Flames, then had 3 in the next 24 to close out the season, and only 2 in 12 postseason games, which is when we needed his so called “pure goal scoring ability.” For a guy who’s literally a 20-25 goal scorer throughout the regular season in his career, I have absolutely no idea why he’s considered such a “pure goal scorer”. He was one of the worst Flames in the playoffs (and there was many of them), falling around all over the ice, making incomplete passes, missing wide open shots/nets, missing assignments, etc.. I legitimately did not like the trade because he’s literally a one-line, one-way, incredibly streaky player and we already have a streaky player like that in Mangiapane, so why the hell do we need Toffoli? Now we basically have 2 of them who should theoretically be our secondary scoring, but their inconsistency prevents that, especially Toffoli’s. And what else does Toffoli contribute to winning? Because whatever it is, was also in ghost mode. Just because he won a cup before (in his second season) on a stacked LA team, doesn’t make him a winner, or give him any of those winning traits and/or characteristics.


A 1st round pick is a premium and should be used to bring in a game changer, such as Florida bringing in Giroux. And yes, I’m aware that Florida also lost in the second round but at least Giroux produced consistently (23 points in 18 regular season games and 8 points in 10 playoff games) and he’s been a proven elite point producer and game changer in the past, whereas Toffoli hasn’t. I honestly would have been fine with the trade had it been a 2nd round pick and not a 1st. A 1st for him is too much. If a 1st round pick cannot fetch you a game changer when you’re trying to go all in, please just save it for the off-season when it can be used to bring in one to shake up and/or improve the line up, whether it be at the draft or during free agency. I understand that game changers are hard to come by, especially around trade deadline time. Although this year guys like Pavelski, JT Miller, Forsberg were all considered potential trade candidates but due to their teams hanging around the two wildcard spots, I can understand why they weren’t traded, but those are the guys that are game changers, along with Giroux, who should be offered a 1st rounder + without second thought, not someone like Toffoli. Even guys like Hertl (prior to him signing an extension with SJ), Chychrun, and the aforementioned Laine (there were rumours of a potential trade but probably unlikely) are worth a 1st. Like I said, if none of those game changers can be traded for with a 1st round pick, for the love of God save the premium picks to be used in the off-season to better our team instead of making a haste trade and overpaying a premium for average players like Toffoli and Jarnkrok. Yes, I know Hagel was traded for 2 1st's and that’s also too much but he’s also only 24 years old and signed for 2 more years (then an RFA) at $1.5 million rather than Toffoli’s remaining 2 years at $4.25 million. Hagel may also not have produced that much for Tampa but that’s because he went from top 6 minutes in Chicago (17:28 per game) to bottom 6 in Tampa (13:35 per game) due to their depth. Toffoli is now 30 and will be going on the wrong side of 30 next season, and is just another example of Treliving’s obsession of signing/trading for these players aged 29/30 who will soon be on the wrong side of 30, i.e., Brouwer, Neal/Lucic, Coleman, and now Toffoli and Jarnkrok. And yes, I included Coleman in there because he’s 30 now and that near $5 million cap hit for him is too much. I honestly believe it’s going to be a buyout contract candidate in the next 2 years. Although he brings more intangibles than both Toffoli and Jarnkrok combined, are those intangibles really worth nearly $5 million per year for 6 years? Because they weren’t necessarily shown this season and/or in the playoffs on a CONSISTENT basis. 33 points in 81 regular season games and 5 points in 12 playoff games isn’t enough when he’s supposed to be a top-6, secondary scoring option for us. Honestly, he was decent overall, but that’s about all, maybe worth $3.5-$4 million per year tops. Perhaps next season, he'll have a better season both offensively and defensively with being more integrated and comfortable in Calgary which may help justify his near $5 million cap hit.


As far as Jarnkrok goes, that was also a terrible trade. A 2nd and a 3rd rounder for another 30-year-old who has never scored more than 35 points is ridiculous. Again, I would have been fine if it was perhaps 2 3rd’s or a 3rd and a 4th instead. Now we’re out of 2 premium picks in a 1st and a 2nd and stuck with this one-line, one-way, incredibly slow skating, ghost of a player in Toffoli for 2 more years and Jarnkrok will probably leave in free agency, and I’m praying he does because he was god awful the minute he put on a Flames jersey. Literally 1 goal in 29 regular season + playoff games. Like, is that a joke? And he was 44.6% on faceoffs in the postseason with 58 won and 72 lost. That’s just not good enough to justify throwing away a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. He literally provided 0 benefit to this team, even less than Toffoli.


I have absolutely no idea why 90% of this board was drooling for Toffoli & Jarnkrok like they were some highly coveted Hockey Gods. Being completely honest, I’d rather have signed Evander Kane (although he’d probably choose Edmonton anyways to play with McDavid). I could care less what he does off the ice, as long as he produces on the ice, which he does and did once the Oilers signed him. I’m about winning games on the ice, not about a player’s off ice issues, that’s his personal life and I don’t care what he does or doesn’t do away from the rink, as long as it doesn’t affect his gameplay. Going forwards, I’d actually love for the Flames to trade for someone like Mark Scheifele in the off-season. I don’t care if he whines and what not, he produces at a star level and is still a point per game player. He had 70 points in 67 games this year and if you remove his 3 points in his first 7 games due to missing the start of the season and being out because of Covid, he would have been on a 92-point pace. I’ll take him and Lindholm down the middle any day of the week and twice on Sunday’s, but now we lack a 1st and a 2nd to package in for a deal for him, or anyone else for that matter, and we need a better 1-2 punch down the middle because Monahan is now completely useless and as good as playoff Backlund is, in the regular season, he’s a realistic and true #3.


To be real, we’re a top-heavy, one-line team offensively. With Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Lindholm being our primary scoring, we lacked secondary scoring throughout the season (other than Mangiapane, who as mentioned is a very streaky and inconsistent player), and especially in the playoffs. Edmonton’s secondary scoring showed up with Kane, Hyman, and Nuge whereas ours didn’t (other than Backlund), and their stars were their stars (Mcdavid 12 points in 5 games and Draisaitl 17 points, yes ####ing 17 points in 5 games), whereas ours weren’t (Tkachuk 4 points in 5 games, Lindholm 4 points in 5 games, and Gaudreau 6 points in 5 games). Yes overall, Gaudreau had a good playoffs compared to his past playoff history, with 14 points in 12 games, but of those 14 points only 3 were goals with 1 being a penalty shot. We needed more from him, especially playing against the best player in the world in McDavid, and another arguably top 5 best player in the world in Draisaitl. He didn’t provide that, and I still don’t think you can win in the playoffs and go far with someone his size. Although he improved versus his past playoff performances, he was still scared to take a hit, go battle along the boards, and thus made quick passes that went no where in the offensive zone or did quick fly-by’s in the defensive zone in order to avoid those situations. Unfortunately, we have no choice but to sign him because we can’t lose him for nothing which means this core will be back together again, which thus means more seasons of playoff failures and complete mediocracy for the foreseeable future. Especially taking into account our lack of assets/picks to trade to help improve our team which were unnecessarily traded for Toffoli and Jarnkrok. Honestly, this team would have been lost without Sutter because his system worked perfectly for them throughout the regular season, but they couldn’t get it done come playoff time because the playoffs are a completely different animal. The postseason is a more physical, tight checking, defensive type game relying on match-ups and understanding the other teams’ and players’ tendencies throughout a 7-game series. Yes, high scoring playoff games are more common now, but the type of different intensity that the playoffs require still holds true, which our team, especially our stars, couldn’t adapt to and/or do not have. Due to a lack of a killer instinct, consistency, and depth/secondary scoring, and our stars not being able to handle the intensity that a playoff game requires, we’re now on the golf course, yet again, and I don’t see next year or the foreseeable future being any different.

[Buff]

Does anyone else hear Charlie Brown's teacher?

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

I feel good about this group and I like our team as human beings. The prospects we're developing could really add an offensive punch to our depth over the next few years. I would try to bring back Gaudreau and Tkachuk long-term. As a fan you can only ask that your team be competitive. The Stanley Cup is incredibly difficult to win and we made it to the second round while kicking a lot of ass along the way.


Next season we'll be right back in the thick of things. Especially with Sutter at the helm.

[Vinny01]

I think this is a solid team and it is great to hear our top 2 US born free agents appear willing to sign 8 year deals here. They were top 10 in scoring and still both have several prime years left.

They basically need to run it back with some tweaks. Probably wishful thinking that Lucic retires but that would be huge. Zadorov is gone, Gudbransen may need to take a discount to stay. Mangiapane may need to take a cheap 1 year walk to free agency or perhaps be dealt.

[Savvy27]

I don't really agree with the tirade against Toffoli. He is undoubtedly streaky, but he came to the team and scored and they won a bunch of games in a row and ended up winning their division.

As for the playoffs he scored 2G and 3A in 12 games (0.42 P/G) and tied for 6th in scoring for the Flames. Not great, but when compared to second and third line players on other teams I don't think he is the massive failure you are describing.

Carolina 13 GP: Svechnikov 0.38, Necas 0.38, Domi 0.38, Niederreiter 0.38
Edmonton 12 GP: Hyman 1.00, Nugent Hopkins 0.92, Yamamoto 0.50, Puljujarvi .025
Florida 10 GP: Huberdeau 0.50, Reinhart 0.40, Bennett 0.30, Duclair 0.38
New York 13 GP: Copp 0.77, Strome 0.62, Vatrano 0.54, Lafreniere 0.46
St Louis 12 GP: Kyrou 0.75, Schenn 0.67, Thomas 0.50, Saad 0.42
Tampa Bay 11 GP: Colton 0.73, Palat 0.73, Paul 0.55, Perry 0.55, Hagel 0.36
Colorado 10 GP: Nichushkin 0.70, Newhook 0.50, Lehkonen 0.50, Burakovsky 0.50

He also took 33 shots, which is good for 21st in the league in the playoffs (and includes 4 players who have played an extra game compared to him). He was definitely a bit snakebit and had some bad luck overall... his xGF% was 55.32% and his actual Goals For % was 43.75%.

Similar to Markstrom, I think it was a disappointing playoffs overall, but not terrible performances. It's a bit of the same story with Jarnkrok, he was playing well enough to generate chances and control the play, but ultimately he was outscored.

[Mindtravellee]

More thought should've been given to Ruczika. I thought he and Lucic were working well. I didn't understand going out getting a 3rd line center when we had one available.

[Dion]

Stay the course and add some young talent from the Heat to supplant the roster.

Blowing it up or trading some of our biggest stars would be a mistake.

[420since1974]

The Flames will have to sacrifice some bodies to keep the core together.
I'd take a chance of signing and trading Mangiapane.
I think that Pelletier could take his place, albeit with lower points during his first NHL season.
That would free up about $3 - 4M to help pay for Gaudreau and Tkachuk.
I'd also try the same thing with Kylington and replace him with Valimaki or Mackey.

[Poe969]

Give massive long term contracts to 2 natural left wingers, don't get an elite #1C or #1D, and keep trading prospects/picks. Profit?

Who was the last team to win a cup without either a #1C or a #1D or a home grown goalie, let alone none of those? They've passed on elite goalie prospects too many times. Winning teams are built through the draft, and down the middle. It's easier to get high end wingers as free agents and through trades as teams aren't giving up elite C's or G's or even D's in trades too often.

I love the team but their current strategy is not a winning one. You won't win the cup with 2 smaller wingers as your best/highest paid players.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Give massive long term contracts to 2 natural left wingers, don't get an elite #1C or #1D, and keep trading prospects/picks. Profit?

Who was the last team to win a cup without either a #1C or a #1D or a home grown goalie, let alone none of those? They've passed on elite goalie prospects too many times. Winning teams are built through the draft, and down the middle. It's easier to get high end wingers as free agents and through trades as teams aren't giving up elite C's or G's or even D's in trades too often.

I love the team but their current strategy is not a winning one. You won't win the cup with 2 smaller wingers as your best/highest paid players.

There’s some truth in this… and it’s why I would trade Tkachuk if the opportunity is there. I do believe they need to whatever it takes to keep Gaudreau. Lindholm is very good but they do need another high end center. The Tkachuk trade could potentially land you a future that nets you this. Otherwise, hope for luck in a prospect developing fast, or Monahan getting something back.

In terms of developing your own 1C, Monahan was that guy before he broke down. It’s bad luck, but I’ve written before here his downfall has been brutally costly for this organization.

[Roof-Daddy]

I also want them to upgrade the C and #1D positions if possible, but this was a 111 point team.

I'm also not a fan of Tkachuk's skating and worry his production could fall off a cliff because of it, which makes a long term deal very risky. But again, 111 point team...

If Tre wants to get as much of the band back together as he can, to try again, I say go for it.

Hopefully some more youth migrates it's way onto the team from the Heat as well.

[Flamesfan05]

Trade Markstrom asap

[Poe969]

If 111 point ls in the regular season or barely making the second round is the goal, don't change a thing I guess. As a business, they should probably not change a thing because I'm sure they were profitable...but if they want to win an actual championship, I think they need to do something different.

If they stay the course, this team will still be good. I don't think it'll be good enough, but they'll still likely make the playoffs and might even win a round once in a while. They just won't win a championship.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Trade Markstrom asap

Marksrtom is a finalist for the Vezina and is probably the biggest reason the Flames got past the Stars in round 1.

Plus he's got a full NMC

I get it, he wasn't good vs the oilers, but even if he'd agree to it, trading him right now is a stupid idea and only makes the team weaker and also forces you to rush Wolf, which is also a stupid idea.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If 111 point ls in the regular season or barely making the second round is the goal, don't change a thing I guess. As a business, they should probably not change a thing because I'm sure they were profitable...but if they want to win an actual championship, I think they need to do something different.

If they stay the course, this team will still be good. I don't think it'll be good enough, but they'll still likely make the playoffs and might even win a round once in a while. They just won't win a championship.

The goal is to build a contender that has a CHANCE to win a Stanley Cup. This team had a chance, but there are a lot of good teams and to go deep in the playoffs you not only need to have a really good team, but you also need luck as well.

Every year there are a handful of teams that COULD have won the cup, but only one breaks through.

Tampa had a good team for years, couldn't break through, and even got swept in round 1 one year before winning cups.

San Jose had a contender for like a decade, only made it to the finals once and never won.

Pittsburgh had two of the best centers in the league and a juggernaut contender for years and years, but had a 7 year drought where they couldn't even get to the finals before final getting back there and winning back to back.

Washington was also a juggernaut perennial President's trophy winner/contender for a decade before finally making the finals and winning.

But hey, if you want to blow up a 111 point team and start over from scratch, each to their own I guess.

Let's not forget, the last two full season without COVID BS this core has been good for 107 and 111 points.

[PuckSlap]

Tampa got swept in the first round, but we didn’t fair much better. The difference is that they got better and won a a cup, while the flames took a step backwards and missed the playoffs all together.

And here we are again just a few years later.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mindtravellee

More thought should've been given to Ruczika. I thought he and Lucic were working well. I didn't understand going out getting a 3rd line center when we had one available.

I didn’t mind getting Jarnkrok, but I didn’t know why everyone thought he was a C, let alone a 3C.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The goal is to build a contender that has a CHANCE to win a Stanley Cup. This team had a chance, but there are a lot of good teams and to go deep in the playoffs you not only need to have a really good team, but you also need luck as well.

Every year there are a handful of teams that COULD have won the cup, but only one breaks through.

Tampa had a good team for years, couldn't break through, and even got swept in round 1 one year before winning cups.

San Jose had a contender for like a decade, only made it to the finals once and never won.

Pittsburgh had two of the best centers in the league and a juggernaut contender for years and years, but had a 7 year drought where they couldn't even get to the finals before final getting back there and winning back to back.

Washington was also a juggernaut perennial President's trophy winner/contender for a decade before finally making the finals and winning.

But hey, if you want to blow up a 111 point team and start over from scratch, each to their own I guess.

Let's not forget, the last two full season without COVID BS this core has been good for 107 and 111 points.

You mentioned Tampa, Pittsburgh, San Jose, and Washington. 3 of those 4 teams won the cup and all 4 had a #1C I would take before any of our C's, a #1D I would take before any of our D and a home grown goalie. The 3 teams who won the up did it with top picks and were built through the draft.

So is your point that teams built through the draft with top picks with elite #1C's, #1D's, and home grown goalies usually end up being up winners? Side note: holtby is the only goalie on that list who wasn't the highest ranked goalie in their draft, Markstrom was the first goalie drafted in 08...but not by the Flames.