Brad Treliving needs to go

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

OK I was under the impression that winning a division took some good coaching ...

Clearly that's not the case.

This is a tough line though ... if Sutter gets all the credit for what's happening now, but Peters get none of the credit for what happened before the line gets a little sketchy doesn't it?

1 year in the 6 Peters was a NHL head coach he got the team to the playoffs. Does that make him a good coach?

Jay Feaster won a Stanley Cup ad a GM and no one will confuse him for ever being a good GM. Winning the Cup is far more impressive than winning a division.

I think the personnel changes in 2018 played a big role in that team winning the division because Lindholm was finally the answer the team was looking for to get Monahan and Gaudreau to the next level. The D slotted better with Hamilton out and Hanifin in.

The Flames fired Hartley and brought in a guy who was an assistant and failed to take his previous team to the playoffs in his brief run as head coach. They followed that up by hiring a guy who for 4 straight years couldn’t get his team to the playoffs. While he comes here and wins the division the Hurricanes not only make the playoffs they go to the conference finals after he is moved out.

Say what you will about that season we hear it now from the current players on the team that there was a terrible job of getting them prepared which proved to be true as they got spanked by a team 19pts behind them in the standings.

Mediocre coming in, team achieved better than expected in the regular season, horribly underachieved in the playoffs, and tuned him out and would have missed if he wasn’t fired and they wouldn’t have got the new coach bump that carried them to the 8th/9th seed play in round.

Flames got a lot of bounces in Peters first year and had a lot of comebacks just like the Hartley Flames in 15. If the Flames lose in round 1 this year and tune Sutter out next year there will be a lot of shine coming off Darryl but he has more equity with this fanbase due to his history here and history of winning cups as a coach.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think the personnel changes in 2018 played a big role in that team winning the division because Lindholm was finally the answer the team was looking for to get Monahan and Gaudreau to the next level. The D slotted better with Hamilton out and Hanifin in.

This. Drafting a prospect the calibre of Fox is what made the trade possible. Tre deserves credit for both the draft and the trade.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So 2nd overall and conference crown ... no credit.
Sutter and division win ... full credit.

Gotcha.

That would almost mean the GM gets full credit for success in 2019 and none for 2022.

Getting to be quite the house of cards for some!

This, up here, is tiresome. That is a custom-built house of cards. Treliving receives credit and receives criticism, all around. The up and down success is actually one of those things that should have him on thin ice, for obvious reasons, and probably why there is much vacillation on positions on the GM. There are times he made good moves, even during the down years, and then there are times he made poor moves, even in the good years. You have to evaluate all moves based on all outcomes, which is why a GM can be fired two months into a season after making a trip to the Stanley Cup the previous season.

Evaluating an executive officer is not done with an eye on any single event, unless completely egregious in action. Evaluating the performance of these guys is based on a longitudinal evaluation and weighed against organizational goals. The most import questions to ask are; has the organization achieved goals set over the years?; has the organization improved from when the individual started?; is the organization positioned to achieve success in the future based on the moves of this individual? These determine if the guy is earning his keep, and why this summer is the most important one in Treliving's career to date. Current on ice performance is wonderful, but is only one measure. The path of the team and whether it can sustain itself for the next five years is how the GM will be measured.

I agree with Erik, let's just enjoy the run and rehash this on July 1st. By that point we will know if we've kept or lost Johnny, whether Tkachuk is one foot out the door, whether Mangiapane is affordable, whether Monahan and Lucic are long for the team, and how the draft went. Until all those things are resolved, Treliving is going nowhere. He'll present his plan to ownership and we'll know how much support he has by the moves he does or does not make. Until then, enjoy the push for success in the playoffs. This team is finally fun to watch at the right time of year. Let's just soak it in.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I’m not sure I’m ready accept that conclusion. While the results were piss poor, Edmonton was able to acquire many coaches that would have been considered “higher end”.

Tippet, McLellen, Hitchcock, and Renney were all highly respected coaches prior to coming to Edmonton.

If Edmonton can attract coaches of that calibre than we should be able to as well.

Calgary doesn't have Connor McDavid and that's an appealing sales point to potential coaches.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Itse

Will anyone use that division win to evaluate the team if they get swept again?

No.

'Nuff said.

Good teams make noise in the playoffs. Let's see that happen before we declare this a good team.

I hope they will, I think they will, but I don't know they will.

That's an incredibly narrow way to assess a GM.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

People put too much value in the playoffs and not enough value in the regular season.

Playoffs are as much about luck, and getting hot at the right time than anything.

The only measure of a team is playoff success. That's why we all keep recollecting about 2004 and 1989.

It's why we make fun of dumpsville up north so much. Best player in the world, zero playoff success.

2019 showed us how little regular seasons mean.

I don't think Tampa was hot at the right time or lucky for the last 2 years.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by chedder

The only measure of a team is playoff success. That's why we all keep recollecting about 2004 and 1989.

It's why we make fun of dumpsville up north so much. Best player in the world, zero playoff success.

2019 showed us how little regular seasons mean.

I don't think Tampa was hot at the right time or lucky for the last 2 years.

Perhaps it is the primary measure of a team.
But that doesn't mean it should be the only measure of a GM.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Itse

Will anyone use that division win to evaluate the team if they get swept again?

No.

'Nuff said.

Good teams make noise in the playoffs. Let's see that happen before we declare this a good team.

I hope they will, I think they will, but I don't know they will.

24 of 32 GM's fired?

I hope the Flames go far too, tons of good teams will lose in round one


If they hit a post and out in game 7 instead of a post and in does that mean the GM sucks?

1989 and 2004 were both an inch away from first round losses, both game 7 overtime

[Flame On]

Just like a good GM should adapt, I'm willing to also. I was open, but probably leaning to: he should go.

Now I see he held the line and did a good job of addressing some of the needs, where he as done less so in the past.

He's bought a significant amount of rope with me. Even if the team bows out in the playoffs early, that's on the players. Almost more he'll be judged again is in the off season with signings/re-tooling.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Perhaps it is the primary measure of a team.

But that doesn't mean it should be the only measure of a GM.

Agree but it's definitely a main measure of a gm. The other measures would be progression in playoff success and an eye to the future.

If we don't at least go deep or if Johnny isn't signed, then I don't know how you judge the gm as being a success.

I hope we see both. Time will tell.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The fact of the matter is that many GMs with his track record as of last season wouldn't have been given the option to make another hire at that point.

I don't take that as an indictment of Treliving and his performance. This has more to do with ridiculous levels of impatience that affect some markets. Thank God Treliving was not replaced in the off season, and I think it is a credit to the organisation that the Flames are more willing than a lot of teams to see their personnel through some of their setbacks.


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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by chedder

Agree but it's definitely a main measure of a gm. The other measures would be progression in playoff success and an eye to the future.

If we don't at least go deep or if Johnny isn't signed, then I don't know how you judge the gm as being a success.

I hope we see both. Time will tell.

I would hope the evaluation is far more complete and nuanced than that. At least by those that make the decisions.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I don't know about that. He didn't have a great coaching record in Carolina, so no idea why he was even the front runner. Wasn't the story that Treliving didn't even interview anyone else and just hired Peters because he met him at the world championships?

The year Peters coached for Treliving in the WC he was already committed in Carolina. It seems obvious that the reason no one was interviewed to replace Gulutzan is because 1) Treliving gad already interviewed a large pool of candidates only two years prior, and 2) he was set on hiring Peters as soon as he became available.

Sure he had a good season, but he was soundly outcoached in the playoffs vs Colorado.

It was his first ever head coaching appearance in the playoffs. Had Peters's history been different I am pretty confident that he—like nearly every other first time playoff appearing head coach—would have performed much better on his next go around.


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[Itse]

Originally Posted by dino7c

24 of 32 GM's fired?

Even good teams sometimes lose in the first round, but there's no such thing as a good team that never wins a playoff round.

People aren't questioning Treliving because he hasn't won a round in 2022 yet. Obviously the results are fine so far.

The problem is he hasn't won a round in the six previous seasons, which is effectively his whole career here. I really hope he can finally turn his track record around, but he hasn't done it yet.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Itse

Will anyone use that division win to evaluate the team if they get swept again?

No.

'Nuff said.

Good teams make noise in the playoffs. Let's see that happen before we declare this a good team.

I hope they will, I think they will, but I don't know they will.

Who debated any of those points? 100% agree.

Was just saying you don't need to talk down a division win, their regular season was solid, doesn't require any asterisk of any kind.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

This, up here, is tiresome. That is a custom-built house of cards. Treliving receives credit and receives criticism, all around. The up and down success is actually one of those things that should have him on thin ice, for obvious reasons, and probably why there is much vacillation on positions on the GM. There are times he made good moves, even during the down years, and then there are times he made poor moves, even in the good years. You have to evaluate all moves based on all outcomes, which is why a GM can be fired two months into a season after making a trip to the Stanley Cup the previous season.

Evaluating an executive officer is not done with an eye on any single event, unless completely egregious in action. Evaluating the performance of these guys is based on a longitudinal evaluation and weighed against organizational goals. The most import questions to ask are; has the organization achieved goals set over the years?; has the organization improved from when the individual started?; is the organization positioned to achieve success in the future based on the moves of this individual? These determine if the guy is earning his keep, and why this summer is the most important one in Treliving's career to date. Current on ice performance is wonderful, but is only one measure. The path of the team and whether it can sustain itself for the next five years is how the GM will be measured.

I agree with Erik, let's just enjoy the run and rehash this on July 1st. By that point we will know if we've kept or lost Johnny, whether Tkachuk is one foot out the door, whether Mangiapane is affordable, whether Monahan and Lucic are long for the team, and how the draft went. Until all those things are resolved, Treliving is going nowhere. He'll present his plan to ownership and we'll know how much support he has by the moves he does or does not make. Until then, enjoy the push for success in the playoffs. This team is finally fun to watch at the right time of year. Let's just soak it in.

That's all fine and good.

I'm pointing directly at the camp that has all the success on Sutter, even the player acquisitions, the GM is just along for the ride.

If that's your stance then winning a division title with a different coach within a four year time window gets kind of harder to explain.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by chedder

Agree but it's definitely a main measure of a gm. The other measures would be progression in playoff success and an eye to the future.

If we don't at least go deep or if Johnny isn't signed, then I don't know how you judge the gm as being a success.

I hope we see both. Time will tell.

If a GM builds a division winner that is able to play consistent, high level hockey in both ends of the ice, out of a mix of high talent guys, role players, and a healthy dose of former cup winners who have been there before… how much fault do you think is his if they go out in the first round?

Given the number of things out of any GMs control, this might be as good as this team can be built. How could the next couple months seriously sway that evaluation to anyone taking a reasonable look at this team and Treliving’s performance?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by chedder

Yes, but that's the only way that works. If they don't win and he walks then I call that a failure of management.

So either Tre knows Johnny is staying or he just went for the hail mary knowing he's fired unless they go all the way.

I'm enjoying the heck out of this season but Tre's job likely hinges on either winning or signing Johnny this summer.

No, it’s not binary. Johnny has said publicly in the past he’s willing to stay depending on contract, and both sides have said they decided not to negotiate in season.

So Treliving takes that and lets the season play out, Johnny then decides he’d rather play in the US and that’s on Treliving?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Who debated any of those points? 100% agree.

Was just saying you don't need to talk down a division win, their regular season was solid, doesn't require any asterisk of any kind.

Well, it's honestly how I feel. I don't have a need to talk down something that IMO has basically no value to begin with.

I genuinely do not give a rat's ass about the regular season results anymore. I couldn't have told you where the Flames are in league wide standings nor do I care.

Win. A. Damn. Round.

At least one. Then at least don't get murdered in the next.

Or GTFO Treliving.

I'm so tired of cheering for a playoff punchline.

[dino7c]

You should give a rats ass about the regular season because it takes about a .600 record to make the playoffs these days

Was 16 of 21 and is now 16 of 32