[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[Roof-Daddy]

Holy crap.

I'm one of the gloomiest Flames fans around, but that's because all I want is a good team to cheer for, and they rarely deliver. Average at best is what they usually give us.

But this team is playing unreal hockey right now. They are probably the best defensive team in the league and they have one of the best goalie tandems in the league backing up that strong defensive play.

They are no slouch offensively either, but if there is a weakness it would secondary scoring. Well, they just added a very good player who can provide secondary scoring, with the added bonus of him also being a very strong defensive player, and with Cup winning experience to boot.

Shore up a weakness, and believe it or not they also improve upon their biggest strength.

They're big, they're mean, they play as a team, they're absolute possession and advanced stats monsters on top of everything else.

This is what we've all been waiting for FFS. Get on board already. This team might not win it all, but they sure as hell look good enough to do it so get excited. Otherwise what is the point of being a fan?

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure but 1 team wins the cup each year. At some point, when is showing potential to go on a run you invest in that team.
You don't have this core with Darryl Sutter at the helm, and the record they have - and then not address a clear need. Particularly when the cost is manageable.

You are over-focused on a scenario (losing a 2023 lotto pick) that has a stunningly low probability of happening.

Also what is a 'true opinion'?

That is why it so rarely makes sense to spend, rather than invest.

Great teams are always planning for the next 15 playoffs, not just 1. Cup winners are not built in a day.


A true opinion is a view based on a logical thought process. Emotion, hope, are not part of that process.

[SportsJunky]

Quotes from Habs practice today.

Suzuki added that he soaked up plenty of knowledge from Toffoli over the last one-and-a-half seasons, valuable lessons that will serve him well in the future.

"Just his attitude that he brought every day. He was a guy that loved coming to the rink, loved being part of the team. He always tried to organize dinners and stuff like that on the road to bring us closer as a group. He was a great leader for all of us," praised Suzuki. "On the hockey side, I just learned a lot from his compete, just learning what it takes to be a good goal scorer. He's done it every single year in the NHL, and I'm sure he's going to continue to do that."

Caufield, meanwhile, explained that Toffoli actually FaceTimed him to share the difficult news.

It was tough to digest, of course, but the youngster is hopeful that his buddy will succeed in his new hockey home.

"I'm really excited for him. He's a guy that deserves to go and try and win another Cup. He's a guy that I look up to a lot," said Caufield. "I've never heard anything bad about him, so that just says a lot about his character."

When interim head coach Martin St. Louis stepped up to the mic, he even noted that "Toffoli was the captain without wearing the C" in the absence of Shea Weber, which indicates just how much he meant to the team.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

I don't see this as true opinion, I see it as hope, and subject to change.

Most opinions are subject to change, and an opinion can be something as simple as "there's reason to be hopeful."

Yours is that there's reason to be doubtful. If we turned it around, we can say that isn't true opinion either, and is subject to change. So what difference does it make?

I think it's a great day, and the difference is that I couldn't care less when you realize it or if you ever do, because it's my opinion.

Aint that magical?

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

I'll summarize, because I've been through all of this before and don't want any of us to have to invest unnecessary gobs of time on it:


If you think that Toffoli is the difference between a Stanley Cup this year and no Stanley Cup, then this is a good trade (or for that matter the next 3 years).


If you don't think that, then, imho, this should be a bad trade to you.



Most here are excited, and "hope" he is the difference. I don't see this as true opinion, I see it as hope, and subject to change.


There are two kinds of trades:

1. Sacrificing the future for now
2. Investing in the future for future


Guess which one of those trades tends to look better in hindsight.

There are risks in every trade, I don't see this particular trade is sacrificing the future. Do I see Toffoli the the piece to win the Stanley Cup for sure? Well, I do believe Toffoli will help the team to go far. Flames once upon a time traded Brett Hull for an aged defenseman and aged goalie. Did they scarified the future? Did Fletcher sweat losing a future superstar in Hull? I bet he didn't. I bet he knew exactly what he was giving up but at the same time he also knew what the team needed for a long playoff run. May be if we have internet at the time, you will go on a forum blasting the trade lacked planing.

[sa226]

For some reason I thought his contract was just one more year after this one. 2.5 years of Toffoli for thar package? When you're trying to make a cup run? Pffft. I do that trade 5 days of the week and twice on Sundays. I think I'd even be willing to pay a bit more.

The most interesting question to me is which one of this seasons regulars won't be around next year. A lot of moving parts on that question.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

I'll summarize, because I've been through all of this before and don't want any of us to have to invest unnecessary gobs of time on it:


If you think that Toffoli is the difference between a Stanley Cup this year and no Stanley Cup, then this is a good trade (or for that matter the next 3 years).


If you don't think that, then, imho, this should be a bad trade to you.

That's ridiculous. The only measure of whether or not this is a good trade is whether it 1) improves the team in either the short term, or 2) the long term, and 3) balanced against the immediate and long term cost. Tofolli makes the Flames immediately better today, for the next two years, and the most valuable asset spent was a low first round pick. That's a win.

Most here are excited, and "hope" he is the difference. I don't see this as true opinion, I see it as hope, and subject to change.

Most people are excited because this is fun, we love this team and it is better with this move in a season in which they are playing fantastic hockey. I very seriously doubt there are many (if any) posters who are convinced this makes the Flames a championship team, but I also think the depth this move provides makes the Flames a serious threat in the playoffs.

There are two kinds of trades:

1. Sacrificing the future for now
2. Investing in the future for future


Guess which one of those trades tends to look better in hindsight.

There are many more than two kinds of trades, and this one is the kinds of trades that improves the team in the short term, the long term, and for a minimal cost. That's a good deal.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by sa226

For some reason I thought his contract was just one more year after this one. 2.5 years of Toffoli for thar package? When you're trying to make a cup run? Pffft. I do that trade 5 days of the week and twice on Sundays. I think I'd even be willing to pay a bit more.

The most interesting question to me is which one of this seasons regulars won't be around next year. A lot of moving parts on that question.

While I think we are losing one Mangi, Gaudreau or Chuckles, it's nice to just watch this season and not fret about tomorrow's problems. That's a bridge to cross later.

There's so much positivity flowing right now I kind of want to just swim in it after having all the joy of watching the Flames get sucked out and dried the last couple.of seasons.

Ride the wave baby! This is the way!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

That is why it so rarely makes sense to spend, rather than invest.

Great teams are always planning for the next 15 playoffs, not just 1. Cup winners are not built in a day.


A true opinion is a view based on a logical thought process. Emotion, hope, are not part of that process.

I don't think you get to decide what makes for a true opinion and what doesn't.
Emotion and hope may not be part of your process, but they are a part of being a fan.

But I'll play.
The logical thought process is as follows:
- The team has a strong record that would be even stronger if not for the COVID swoon
- They have a coach with a record of winning cups
- They have a team who's core is in their prime
- They identified a clear need within their forward group
- They identified a way to address that need for a relatively low acquisition cost given the probability of mid 20s 1st rounders being impact players
- By acquiring that player, they improved both the 3rd and 4th lines, as well as their powerplay.
- That player doesn't just improve their team for this year, but gives them flexibility for the next 2 years thanks to a very affordable cap hit


What is not logical about that?

[Samonadreau]

Chiclets completely gushing over the Flames and the Toffoli move.

And Bashing the Coilers.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Also what is a 'true opinion'?

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think you get to decide what makes for a true opinion and what doesn't.

Cool, so, if you don't want an answer, in the future you can avoid it by not asking the question.

People getting a little emotional around here.

Relax and continue your celebrations. We'll chat later.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Holy crap.

I'm one of the gloomiest Flames fans around, but that's because all I want is a good team to cheer for, and they rarely deliver. Average at best is what they usually give us.

But this team is playing unreal hockey right now. They are probably the best defensive team in the league and they have one of the best goalie tandems in the league backing up that strong defensive play.

They are no slouch offensively either, but if there is a weakness it would secondary scoring. Well, they just added a very good player who can provide secondary scoring, with the added bonus of him also being a very strong defensive player, and with Cup winning experience to boot.

Shore up a weakness, and believe it or not they also improve upon their biggest strength.

They're big, they're mean, they play as a team, they're absolute possession and advanced stats monsters on top of everything else.

This is what we've all been waiting for FFS. Get on board already. This team might not win it all, but they sure as hell look good enough to do it so get excited. Otherwise what is the point of being a fan?

Haha I've the same way, been pessimistic about the team for years. That's why I don't even post much about them because I would just be complaining most of the time. But it's hard not to like what they're doing right now although I still want to see how they look in the first round. Good things is Sutter hockey is made for the playoffs.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

If you think that Toffoli is the difference between a Stanley Cup this year and no Stanley Cup, then this is a good trade (or for that matter the next 3 years).

That's a very binary way of looking at it. Is he the difference? Of course not. They can win it with him, or without him. But I think he moves us closer, at a reasonable cost.

Your logic and reasoning on this are suspect.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Holy crap.

I'm one of the gloomiest Flames fans around, but that's because all I want is a good team to cheer for, and they rarely deliver. Average at best is what they usually give us.

But this team is playing unreal hockey right now. They are probably the best defensive team in the league and they have one of the best goalie tandems in the league backing up that strong defensive play.

They are no slouch offensively either, but if there is a weakness it would secondary scoring. Well, they just added a very good player who can provide secondary scoring, with the added bonus of him also being a very strong defensive player, and with Cup winning experience to boot.

Shore up a weakness, and believe it or not they also improve upon their biggest strength.

They're big, they're mean, they play as a team, they're absolute possession and advanced stats monsters on top of everything else.

This is what we've all been waiting for FFS. Get on board already. This team might not win it all, but they sure as hell look good enough to do it so get excited. Otherwise what is the point of being a fan?

For me, the only thing left is Colorado. I feel like we haven't had a good test against them in a while. Not sure how we stack up.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

That is why it so rarely makes sense to spend, rather than invest.

Great teams are always planning for the next 15 playoffs, not just 1. Cup winners are not built in a day.

Well, duh. And this current Flames team has been a building project for over seven years now. It takes a long time to assemble all the necessary pieces of a championship team, and the Flames look much closer to that today than they did two days ago.

A true opinion is a view based on a logical thought process. Emotion, hope, are not part of that process.

What sort of nonsense is this? A "true" opinion is one that is deeply held, regardless of how logical it may or may not be. Now, there are distinct differences between good opinions and poor ones, and your rambling in this thread reveals much more of the latter; not so much of the former.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

There are risks in every trade, I don't see this particular trade is sacrificing the future. Do I see Toffoli the the piece to win the Stanley Cup for sure? Well, I do believe Toffoli will help the team to go far. Flames once upon a time traded Brett Hull for an aged defenseman and aged goalie. Did they scarified the future? Did Fletcher sweat losing a future superstar in Hull? I bet he didn't. I bet he knew exactly what he was giving up but at the same time he also knew what the team needed for a long playoff run. May be if we have internet at the time, you will go on a forum blasting the trade lacked planing.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise of your post (at all) but Ramage wasn't even that old- had just turned 29 (hmmm) and actually had represented St Louis in the allstar game that season just prior to the trade...his arrival gave the Flames 4 (!!) of the 6 Campbell conference allstar defenceman that year


At the time Sather threw a fit that St Louis got robbed in that deal


(as an aside these were the 12 dmen in the 88 allstar game; in some sort of order: Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Macinnis, Coffey, Howe, Lowe (putting here only as the 7th HOFer), Suter, McCrimmon, Ramage, Iafrate, K Samuelsson...talk about a stacked group

[D as in David]

I have an opinion (true or not) that the poster made up "true opinion". Is this a thing? I hope not and I'll be really mad if it is.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by sa226

For some reason I thought his contract was just one more year after this one. 2.5 years of Toffoli for thar package? When you're trying to make a cup run? Pffft. I do that trade 5 days of the week and twice on Sundays. I think I'd even be willing to pay a bit more.

The most interesting question to me is which one of this seasons regulars won't be around next year. A lot of moving parts on that question.

But not on Saturday?

I’ll show myself out.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Chiclets completely gushing over the Flames and the Toffoli move.

And Bashing the Coilers.

Loved them crapping on the Oilers when they brought up the Tippett diring too. Biz saying "To fans of other teams, my sincerest apologies that we have to talk about this pathetic team every ####ing show. The Edmonton Headline Hogs"

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

That is why it so rarely makes sense to spend, rather than invest.

Great teams are always planning for the next 15 playoffs, not just 1. Cup winners are not built in a day.


A true opinion is a view based on a logical thought process. Emotion, hope, are not part of that process.

Careful.

If you're assigning yourself the logical thought process and those that disagree with you the emotion and hope you're kind of the judge and jury on the matter.

Others would argue it's complete logic given how the team is playing, the coach in place and the uncertainty with Gaudreau and Tkachuk.