[PGT] Lightning 4 Flames 1

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Sounds a bit whiny, what does the flames poor track record of drafting, player management & bad trades have to do with Canada vs US.

We had had our opportunities to bottom out, we stubbornly chose not to therefore leading to a poor return for Iggy, our fault there, not utilizing Sam Bennett is our fault- , we had a top 4 pick... and lets not get into all the poor trades over the years.

We have no one but to blame but ourselves IMO.

It’s whiny, the majority of Tampa’s players including Kuch, Point,Vasi, palat,kilorn, Cirelli were available for the Flames to pick up in the draft

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Just for clarification on my part. I recall Sutter didn't have control over call ups he said so himself when people wanted to call up Philip.

I know he said that, but I also know that he likely didn’t really want Philips. It’s a pretty easy answer.

He doesn’t have final say, but if he said “send Richardson down, bring Pelletier up”, it’d be done.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I agree with this. But Tampa does sign middle guys as well - Cirelli is making $4.8/yr. They don't have guys like Pitlick, Gudbranson and Zadorov playing 3rd pair and 4th line making more than $1.5m. And they're cheaper guys are putting up points - Perry, Colton

The Flames have a lot of good contracts. Assuming they can lock up Kylington for less than $5m/year - they'll have a top 4 defense with all guys under $5m. Lindholm is a steal at his contract.

Also need to give credit to these other guys too. I get everyone likes to say Tampa cheated with their cap but it takes a special team to be one of the best regular season teams sitting out their 100 point winger. Then this year the shed the extra cap and kucherov has played 4 games and they are even better this year. Point missed 12 games no problem they keep winning.

Let’s sit Johnny for the rest of the year and see what happens? Can’t even win the division with him. Tampa just keeps rolling without their stars because the support cast isn’t good?

How many man games have the flames lost to anyone worth mentioning?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Also need to give credit to these other guys too. I get everyone likes to say Tampa cheated with their cap but it takes a special team to be one of the best regular season teams sitting out their 100 point winger. Then this year the shed the extra cap and kucherov has played 4 games and they are even better this year. Point missed 12 games no problem they keep winning.

Let’s sit Johnny for the rest of the year and see what happens? Can’t even win the division with him. Tampa just keeps rolling without their stars because the support cast isn’t good?

How many man games have the flames lost to anyone worth mentioning?

Point making $6.75 helps a lot as well. Next year he vaults to $9.5 and the rubber will hit the road. But if they win again this year, they sure can’t complain.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I know he said that, but I also know that he likely didn’t really want Philips. It’s a pretty easy answer.

He doesn’t have final say, but if he said “send Richardson down, bring Pelletier up”, it’d be done.

I am not disagreeing with you. I just assumed he still didn't have that control as he said so himself but you made a good point about the "working together" which did come afterward, but as the season ended they got together for the next season with a plan. I have been on record to support both of them and didn't want to be lumped with the assumption of pitting them against each other. Not everyone who makes comments are putting them against each other though it might happen for different reasons.

[dino7c]

Sutter trashed the lack of talent on Kings roster every game too

Its his way of getting guys to go balls to the wall..."we can't match their talent so we have to play as a team and give everything"

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I know he said that, but I also know that he likely didn’t really want Philips. It’s a pretty easy answer.

He doesn’t have final say, but if he said “send Richardson down, bring Pelletier up”, it’d be done.

Yeah Sutter has the power to use anybody in the organization he wants

He is not a yes man like Gulutzan also

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Sutter trashed the lack of talent on Kings roster every game too

Its his way of getting guys to go balls to the wall..."we can't match their talent so we have to play as a team and give everything"

Yes he has consistently played the underdog card throughout his entire coaching career. Always gives the other team a ton of credit and makes it seem like his team is over-matched.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The problem is Tampa is not over paying anyone. Kucherov Point and Palat are as good if not better than our first line. Kucherov and Point make 19 mil and add Palat and you are taking 3 players 23.8 mil. Palat is a UFA but right now Point contract hasn't even kicked in.

Hedman makes less than $8 mil. Once again not an over pay but really one of the best contracts in the NHL.

Vasilevsky makes $9.5 mil and that is steep for a goalie but he's one of the best.

Kucherov is probably $2 mil under what he should be, Hedman is $3 mil under what he should be. Point is at $7 mil right now and probably $2 mil less than he should be. These mil here mil there add up to Stamkos.

Sure if you look at the short term the Flames can get rid of Zadorov, Monahan and Lucic and just give Tkachuk and Gaudreau $11 mil and be fine for a bit. But what will Lindholm get? Hard not to give him $11 mil in 2 years.

Tampa Bay is actually an argument for signing key guys that you drafted long term and not letting them walk.

Just continually try to add and build around them via the draft or trade.

They didn't trade Stamkos when he was UFA, they re-signed him to what was market value at the time.

He went to UFA and almost left Tampa, he took a bit of a discount for about $1.5M but they didn't trade him when he was almost UFA.

Vasilevskiy is the third highest paid goalie in the league. He's worth it, but it wasn't a discount.

Kucherov is the 15th highest paid player in the league, it's expensive but he's been worth it.

Point pretty much signed the same bridge contract as Tkachuk, and will now be getting $9.5M next season.

Hedman was one of the top 5 paid d-men in the league when he signed that deal. He signed that deal coming off a 47 point season, and then exploded for 72 points the following year. It was a fair value contract at the time it was signed.

Tampa Bay blueprint has been to lock up your stars, and then do what you need to do to fill in a team around them.

The real key for Tampa is they never went and overpaid for UFAs. Some of the guys they drafted didn't always live up to the contracts (Johnson, Killorn has been up and down).

But they never went out and tried to sign Troy Brouwer's or James Neal's.

They just drafted well, kept adding pieces via trade or the draft, and paid their own stars when the time came. Didn't overpay for UFAs.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Tampa Bay is actually an argument for signing key guys that you drafted long term and not letting them walk.

Just continually try to add and build around them via the draft or trade.

They didn't trade Stamkos when he was UFA, they re-signed him to what was market value at the time.

He went to UFA and almost left Tampa, he took a bit of a discount for about $1.5M but they didn't trade him when he was almost UFA.

Vasilevskiy is the third highest paid goalie in the league. He's worth it, but it wasn't a discount.

Kucherov is the 15th highest paid player in the league, it's expensive but he's been worth it.

Point pretty much signed the same bridge contract as Tkachuk, and will now be getting $9.5M next season.

Hedman was one of the top 5 paid d-men in the league when he signed that deal I think. He signed that deal coming off a 47 point season, and then exploded for 72 points the following year. It was a fair value contract at the time it was signed.

Tampa Bay blueprint has been to lock up your stars, and then do what you need to do to fill in a team around them.

The real key for Tampa is they never went and overpaid for UFAs. Some of the guys they drafted didn't always live up to the contracts (Johnson, Killorn has been up and down).

But they never went out and tried to sign Troy Brouwer's or James Neal's.

They just drafted well, kept adding pieces via trade or the draft, and paid their own stars when the time came. Didn't overpay for UFAs.

But they also didn’t over pay to resign their guys too which is the argument I’m making. Resign Gaudreau and Tkachuk yes but not for $11 mil as that is a over pay but a lot compared to Tampa signing kucherov and point to $9.5.

Killorn stepped up with top guys injured and has more points than Tkachuk and Lindholm but he is just depth and Tkachuk is $11 mil good. He’s not and we can’t over pay him by $2 mil. Teams like Tampa don’t do that

[timbit]

Very good to excellent Drafting, Development , Trading, UFA acquisitions , Cap management, Player Leadership and Coaching are the hallmarks of all legitimate SC contenders, past and present.

Flames aren’t there yet .

See Lightning, Hurricanes, and Panthers.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

But they also didn’t over pay to resign their guys too which is the argument I’m making. Resign Gaudreau and Tkachuk yes but not for $11 mil as that is a over pay but a lot compared to Tampa signing kucherov and point to $9.5.

Killorn stepped up with top guys injured and has more points than Tkachuk and Lindholm but he is just depth and Tkachuk is $11 mil good. He’s not and we can’t over pay him by $2 mil. Teams like Tampa don’t do that

100% Fair.

But if you can get both for $9.0-$10M then I think that's fair.

Really nobody has been able to win with players making more than $10M, overpayment or not.

Originally Posted by timbit

Very good to excellent Drafting, Development , Trading, UFA acquisitions , Cap management, Player Leadership and Coaching are the hallmarks of all legitimate SC contenders, past and present.

Flames aren’t there yet .

See Lightning, Hurricanes, and Panthers.

It's more "See Lightning"

Hurricanes and Panthers haven't won anything yet.

Hurricanes have had a bit of success the last 3 seasons, but missed the playoffs for 9 years before that.

Panthers look great this year but haven't won a playoff round since 1996, and in the last 5 years have a worse playoff record than the Flames do.

Flames and Panthers actually have a lot of similarities in their teams and this core's journey over the last 7-8 years (Huberdeau+Barkov / Gaudreau+Monahan eras). Coming into this season the teams had 243 points vs 241 points in the three seasons prior, they are almost identical types of teams.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

100% Fair.

But if you can get both for $9.0-$10M then I think that's fair.

Really nobody has been able to win with players making more than $10M, overpayment or not.



It's more "See Lightning"

Hurricanes and Panthers haven't won anything yet.

Panthers look great this year but haven't won a playoff round since 1996, and in the last 5 years have a worse playoff record than the Flames do. Flames and Panthers have a lot of similarities in terms of being mis-managed actually.

Read the post again...”legitimate Stanley Cup contenders”, not Stanley Cup winners.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

100% Fair.

But if you can get both for $9.0-$10M then I think that's fair.

Really nobody has been able to win with players making more than $10M, overpayment or not.



It's more "See Lightning"

Hurricanes and Panthers haven't won anything yet.

Panthers look great this year but haven't won a playoff round since 1996, and in the last 5 years have a worse playoff record than the Flames do. Flames and Panthers have a lot of similarities in terms of being mis-managed actually.

$10 mil is still a bit steep but $9.5 or less I think we need to take that chance and see if we can continue to draft and develop some players. It will be nice to see what not trading too many picks away for a couple years can do for this team. 2019 we were short but not too bad but 2020 and 2021 we had extra picks for once. Stockton is playing very well lead by kids so for me that is the biggest difference for thinking we can get there with this core. We desperately needs a couple kids to fill some spots next year. Looking like this team may have a few options. Not just like the usual 1 kid to be excited about

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

For me, I’m in the opposite camp. The rebuild to me is a last resort. For the first time in a long time, I think this team is truly headed in the right direction. I hope Gaudreau and Tkachuk stay because together with Lindholm, they’ve created arguably, the best 2 way line in the entire league.

This line alone has beaten a lot of average teams this season. But at the same time, they’ve also propped up the team and hidden the underlying flaws of the team that have recently been exposed against the the elite teams of the league.

Personally though, I think the Flames are a few pieces away from being a contender, not Tampa good, but Vegas/Colorado good. Tampa is just at a different level than everyone else. But we’ve got the right top line. It’s just a matter of insulating that first line with a consistent, dependable second line and a quality third line. I think some of the pieces (i.e. Mangiapane, Coleman and etc.) can be a part of the solution, but that’ll be Treliving and co’s ultimate job going forward, what can they add/remove to find the right mix and create depth throughout the lineup.

On one hand you're right - the Flames are only a few pieces away from being a contender. The trouble is, if you identify those pieces, it turns out they aren't pieces the team can find or afford. I'd argue they are short of a top line center, a top D man, and probably a winger.

Lindholm is doing great, and if you think he's a legit 1c, I'll give it to you - I don't think he is a dominant, elite 1c, but let's say that's unavailable, there's no Sydney Crosby trade happening, and Lindholm is the guy, then what the Flames need badly is a much, much better 2C. This was, I had hoped, Monahan's slot. But he's fallen off the face of the earth. Where I thought it was real bad that the team's hoped-for future 1C in Bennett didn't pan out, I think we all felt that Monahan could kinda grind along. But that's not happening, and it's Lindholm (leaving one scoring right winger on the team apparently). Backlund has the smarts and might still have the tenacity, but he doesn't have any scoring touch really, he's not much of a threat out there, more a possession guy. Great 3rd line forward at this point. Adequate second line forward, but only adequate. So I still think there's a big hole at center for the team to look threatening.

The D core had a lovely surprise in Kylington, but he's still cutting his teeth and will be for another year or two in the NHL. He's got the talent, but not the experience. Rasmus I thought had a higher ceiling than what we are seeing - he's all right, but he's not a dominant defender. Tanev is good, but uni dimensional. Flames don't have an overly talented D group right now. Another skater, a shooter, a powerplay guy would be great.

The wing talent on the team simply isn't good enough. Other than the top line, Mangiapane has some finish, and then, ... who, Lucic? That's the next in terms of points? Need a Hertl, or need Dube to find some touch. Dube's a wildcard for me, he could turn in the right direction, but right now he's Lombardi 2.0 for me, fast and... pretty fast.

So the Flames, as is, are a pretty good team when they work hard and don't take penalties and mabye get a bounce. But the idea that they just need a quick tweak to be a real contender... I just don't see it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by timbit

Read the post again...”legitimate Stanley Cup contenders”, not Stanley Cup winners.

I'm not sure Florida belongs there yet either - have they proven anymore than say Calgary was when they were in first in the conference in 18-19?

There are 5 teams that are the "bar" IMO

Tampa Bay, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh, Vegas

Those teams have had continued playoff and regular season success over the last 5 years.

In terms of the teams poised to join that group it's likely Carolina, Toronto, and Colorado. Maybe Florida if they can continue this 34 game start.

Florida is a good story this year so far, but really they are no better than the Flames when looking at the last 3-4 seasons as a whole.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I agree with this. But Tampa does sign middle guys as well - Cirelli is making $4.8/yr. They don't have guys like Pitlick, Gudbranson and Zadorov playing 3rd pair and 4th line making more than $1.5m. And they're cheaper guys are putting up points - Perry, Colton

The Flames have a lot of good contracts. Assuming they can lock up Kylington for less than $5m/year - they'll have a top 4 defense with all guys under $5m. Lindholm is a steal at his contract.

Yep, that Florida tax must be nice too. Makes every GM look a little bit better after a negotiation.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The problem is Tampa is not over paying anyone. Kucherov Point and Palat are as good if not better than our first line. Kucherov and Point make 19 mil and add Palat and you are taking 3 players 23.8 mil. Palat is a UFA but right now Point contract hasn't even kicked in.

Hedman makes less than $8 mil. Once again not an over pay but really one of the best contracts in the NHL.

Vasilevsky makes $9.5 mil and that is steep for a goalie but he's one of the best.

Kucherov is probably $2 mil under what he should be, Hedman is $3 mil under what he should be. Point is at $7 mil right now and probably $2 mil less than he should be. These mil here mil there add up to Stamkos.

Sure if you look at the short term the Flames can get rid of Zadorov, Monahan and Lucic and just give Tkachuk and Gaudreau $11 mil and be fine for a bit. But what will Lindholm get? Hard not to give him $11 mil in 2 years.

What does Mangiapane get?

What does Kylington get?

I'm struggiling to sign up for a middle of the pack wild card type record and cap hell. Pelletier and Zary could be future assets to this team but with the ELC slide this year you have them for 2 years and if they play well (because it is needed to improve this team) you have 2 years to win it all before you set your self up for a rebuild. Maybe they can win it all in 2 years but I'm not sure with about $32 mil in cap and 11 guys signed giving $22 mil to 2 players and still needing $10 for the other 2 that this team gets better. It might take Monahan dumped to sign everyone and this all includes no Zadorov, Pitlick and Gudbranson gone and a bunch of league minimum replacements. I already see year 1 being a waste with those contracts.

$27 mil for Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane and Kylington is probably the max we can afford before we screw our cap situation.

It’s hard for me to compare any Canadian team to the Florida’s because their taxation situation is just so much better than ours. If I’m Treliving, I'm putting the squeeze on Kylington because he needs a prove me deal like Mangiapane signed. Once there’s more cap relief in 2023, then Treliving can start adding more. But there’s no doubt about it, next season will be tight.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

On one hand you're right - the Flames are only a few pieces away from being a contender. The trouble is, if you identify those pieces, it turns out they aren't pieces the team can find or afford. I'd argue they are short of a top line center, a top D man, and probably a winger.

Lindholm is doing great, and if you think he's a legit 1c, I'll give it to you - I don't think he is a dominant, elite 1c, but let's say that's unavailable, there's no Sydney Crosby trade happening, and Lindholm is the guy, then what the Flames need badly is a much, much better 2C. This was, I had hoped, Monahan's slot. But he's fallen off the face of the earth. Where I thought it was real bad that the team's hoped-for future 1C in Bennett didn't pan out, I think we all felt that Monahan could kinda grind along. But that's not happening, and it's Lindholm (leaving one scoring right winger on the team apparently). Backlund has the smarts and might still have the tenacity, but he doesn't have any scoring touch really, he's not much of a threat out there, more a possession guy. Great 3rd line forward at this point. Adequate second line forward, but only adequate. So I still think there's a big hole at center for the team to look threatening.

The D core had a lovely surprise in Kylington, but he's still cutting his teeth and will be for another year or two in the NHL. He's got the talent, but not the experience. Rasmus I thought had a higher ceiling than what we are seeing - he's all right, but he's not a dominant defender. Tanev is good, but uni dimensional. Flames don't have an overly talented D group right now. Another skater, a shooter, a powerplay guy would be great.

The wing talent on the team simply isn't good enough. Other than the top line, Mangiapane has some finish, and then, ... who, Lucic? That's the next in terms of points? Need a Hertl, or need Dube to find some touch. Dube's a wildcard for me, he could turn in the right direction, but right now he's Lombardi 2.0 for me, fast and... pretty fast.

So the Flames, as is, are a pretty good team when they work hard and don't take penalties and mabye get a bounce. But the idea that they just need a quick tweak to be a real contender... I just don't see it.

Yeah I’m in agreement with most of what you’ve said. For me though, I really do think the Flames are close to being a great threat in the West at the very least. They’ve assembled a team that’s built to go deep into the playoffs IMO. Lot of big bodies who can play heavier playoff hockey and wear down the opposition in a 7 game series. So I give the Flames the advantage there even if the roster isn’t quite as deep.

To me though, this team needs something, anything to get the second line going to be a legitimate threat against the other elite teams in this conference. If Treliving can accomplish that, then tweaks to the third line and D could really get this team to the next level. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic and/or ambitious, but I like the foundation of this team right now in terms of systems, top line and goaltending.

[DeluxeMoustache]

So just to be clear, there was no fallout from / league review of Richardson’s head shot?

Is the league cool with it because he got a match penalty? Or fought immediately after?