unethical business experience *LONG READ*

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I knew it wouldn't be a popular term, but when you are attacked and victimized, and then blamed for not doing enough to not be victimized...the term kind of fits independent of its use in other more physically violent and traumatizing circumstances.

It absolutely does not fit, even if you ignore the triviality of the harm in comparison. There are plenty of circumstances where a negative review of a business is perfectly warranted and acceptable. There are other circumstances where it is debatable - as we see in this thread - whether a bad review was warranted or not in the circumstances. There are no circumstances whatsoever where there is a reasonable debate about whether someone deserved to be raped.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It absolutely does not fit, even if you ignore the triviality of the harm in comparison. There are plenty of circumstances where a negative review of a business is perfectly warranted and acceptable. There are other circumstances where it is debatable - as we see in this thread - whether a bad review was warranted or not in the circumstances. There are no circumstances whatsoever where there is a reasonable debate about whether someone deserved to be raped.

You're bringing rape into this; not me.

The term fits when you tell a company to 'do a better job' when they get an undeserved bad review. The company is a victim and they're being blamed for the poor review. That's victim blaming.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

No, you brought rape into it when you used a term that is inextricably tied up in rape cases - the absolute first thing that jumps into anyone's mind when someone says "victim blame" is sexual assault. It's basic word association. More specifically, the "she had a short skirt on so she was asking for it" type of victim blaming. That's what it evokes. The reason to use that phrase in a different context is to profit off of that association by trying to incur sympathy despite not being in remotely the same position as a rape victim.

Which, again, I don't usually point out when people do this, but then you took it further with actual, overt analogies to sexual assault and "Me Too", so I reiterate: stop it. Don't do that. Bad.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It helps, but it doesn't help the aggregate star rating the business has.

That's where it'd be nice if Google (and other review sites) mitigated the damage that can be done by those who look at the averaged-out star rating and made quick decisions based on that by hiding the star ratings until a certain threshold of incoming reviews is consistently reached. Like 100+ on a rolling 6-month basis. That way the system - that works exactly the same for a Wal-Mart Supercentre as it does for a hot dog stand on Stephen Avenue Walk - addresses the different challenges a small business has racking up a fair average rating.

That by no means solves all the problems with the unfair rating system, but it would help a little on that one point.

I'm curious of what your expectation of a good aggregate score is? If I'm looking for a local store for something, I'm not the least bit concerned with anything between 4.6-5.0, or really differentiate between any of those.

Thinking about something I know a bit about, I looked up local bike stores. My regular store is a 4.7. They are pretty top notch in terms of products, knowledgeable staff and service. There's another one I've gone too sometimes with bigger selection of kids bikes and that kind of thing. It's hit or miss whether you get someone helpful, or good service. They have a 4.2. i see a couple others I've never been to but are much smaller shops that I've heard great things about that are 4.8 and 4.9. One I've never heard of is 5.0, which seems a bit suspicious. Dicks's Sporting Goods showed up as a 3.9. I'm not sure where this impression that large companies are favored comes from, when all the big box stores usually have terrible Google ratings.

Ratings for restaurants I'm familiar with seem consistent with my experience. The real special ones that I'd make a reservation a week or two out are 4.7-4.9. The almost as good ones are 4.4-4.6. The places that we'd go to at the last minute we know we can get into and get decent food are in the lower 4s. That all seems to be working as designed to me.

[Heavy Jack]

5 star thread

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

No, you brought rape into it when you used a term that is inextricably tied up in rape cases - the absolute first thing that jumps into anyone's mind when someone says "victim blame" is sexual assault. It's basic word association. More specifically, the "she had a short skirt on so she was asking for it" type of victim blaming. That's what it evokes. The reason to use that phrase in a different context is to profit off of that association by trying to incur sympathy despite not being in remotely the same position as a rape victim.

Which, again, I don't usually point out when people do this, but then you took it further with actual, overt analogies to sexual assault and "Me Too", so I reiterate: stop it. Don't do that. Bad.

Well, I'll do what I want, I guess. I think the term fits. I think businesses are victimized by big tech companies using consumers as the weapon. And I think when businesses raise their valid concerns they're dismissed too readily. They're victim blamed.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, it's like that episode of Black Mirror that was super horrifying where people rate other people based on the tiniest interaction and you walk around with a virtual score above your head.

Except for a business owner, it is real life. We are existing like that right now and everyone can see every business's rating by just pulling out their phone.

If all of you had to carry the weight of a "rating" for all to see you would agree with me. Especially once you considered it's a rigged game set up to enrich a third party that could not care less about the integrity of the reviews or the fallout for the businesses.

Welcome to life in general though. There is no slowing the internet down and consumers almost default to doing all their shopping, banking, living you name it online. As a musician of 20 years I’ve seen the idioms of getting art out to the people erode away. Algorithms dominate any form of media that promotes music making it so the ‘small business’ bands have a sea of other ‘small business’ bands to contend with (bedroom musicians kill me anymore) while juggernauts that are built up by the industry like Drake (or even a band like Greta Van Fleet) rule the playing field. And that’s not something that’s gonna just disappear… it’s undoubtedly here to stay and with it we will continue to see erosion in many aspects of life which is frustrating.

I hate shopping from Amazon and generally online but I still do and I do so at an increasing rate which is evidence of small businesses being squeezed out of the marketshare all while the juggernauts like Amazon (Drake) continue to surge.

Is a 3 out of 5 star going to impact Amazon the same way it will impact Gary’s electronics?? No it’s not… it’s why small business now more than ever really needs to put all their marbles into customer experience and keeping the customer as happy as possible because at the end of the day if this hot tub place didn’t have Flames_gimp looking for a used hottub and he just went to CostCo (Drake) then what does this small business have? One less consumer swallowed up by the juggernauts.

It’s depressing to watch unfold slowly because small business and the arts community typically are what make cities unique and give them their own unique charm.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by nik-

I don't know about anyone else, but when I see a business owner responding to negative reviews, being all pissy, I definitely say to myself "Yeah, I want to shop there".

Definitely this. Sane people know most 1 star and 5 star reviews are worthless and instead look for trends in reviews to get a feel for a place but if an owner is responding to poor reviews with attacks and childishness that’s easy to tell you would not want to do business with them. It doesn’t cost anything to be professional but acting like a petulant child reflects more poorly on your business than any review possibly could.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Welcome to life in general though. There is no slowing the internet down and consumers almost default to doing all their shopping, banking, living you name it online. As a musician of 20 years I’ve seen the idioms of getting art out to the people erode away. Algorithms dominate any form of media that promotes music making it so the ‘small business’ bands have a sea of other ‘small business’ bands to contend with (bedroom musicians kill me anymore) while juggernauts that are built up by the industry like Drake (or even a band like Greta Van Fleet) rule the playing field. And that’s not something that’s gonna just disappear… it’s undoubtedly here to stay and with it we will continue to see erosion in many aspects of life which is frustrating.

I hate shopping from Amazon and generally online but I still do and I do so at an increasing rate which is evidence of small businesses being squeezed out of the marketshare all while the juggernauts like Amazon (Drake) continue to surge.

Is a 3 out of 5 star going to impact Amazon the same way it will impact Gary’s electronics?? No it’s not… it’s why small business now more than ever really needs to put all their marbles into customer experience and keeping the customer as happy as possible because at the end of the day if this hot tub place didn’t have Flames_gimp looking for a used hottub and he just went to CostCo (Drake) then what does this small business have? One less consumer swallowed up by the juggernauts.

It’s depressing to watch unfold slowly because small business and the arts community typically are what make cities unique and give them their own unique charm.

Agreed. And that's why I'm totally confused when a Calgarian rates a fellow Calgarian's business three stars (general rating discussion here; not FG in particular) because the service was good, but not above and beyond enough. Okay, sorry I'm too busy making pizzas at my pizzeria to make you feel special enough. More of those three-star reviews and I'll be out of business and you can enjoy Boston Pizza, I guess.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Agreed. And that's why I'm totally confused when a Calgarian rates a fellow Calgarian's business three stars (general rating discussion here; not FG in particular) because the service was good, but not above and beyond enough. Okay, sorry I'm too busy making pizzas at my pizzeria to make you feel special enough. More of those three-star reviews and I'll be out of business and you can enjoy Boston Pizza, I guess.

Well if Boston Pizza is beating you on service I think you don't have a feasible business and likely should pack it in.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Well if Boston Pizza is beating you on service I think you don't have a feasible business and likely should pack it in.

Really? Because Boston Pizza is going to have better service than almost any independent small-business-style pizza joint. Like, there's going to be a cute hostess or two welcoming you, attentive wait staff, kitchen staff, managers, etc. From a service perspective, they will be better basically every time, won't they?

Like, go to Tom's House of Pizza. You'll often talk to the guy who is making your pizza to place your order. If he's on the phone or there are a couple of people ahead of you, I can tell you the service will be much worse than a well-staffed BPs.

Should Tom's get three stars for service and BP five? It's probably accurate, but is that what we want to be doing to small businesses? I don't. That's why I would never penalize a business like Tom's with a 3 star, whether it's technically fair or not. I'd give him five if I was happy or not rate it at all if I wasn't. Why do I want to take time out of my day to take food off his table? I just don't get the mentality.

[Swift]

As someone pointed out earlier, it's the chains that have the worst Google ratings anyway. Take a look at pizza hut, Domino's, Papa John's for pizza, or KFC, McDonald's, DQ, etc. All rated in the 2s and 3s, so if anybody's winning in the ratings game it's not the big guys.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Well if Boston Pizza is beating you on service I think you don't have a feasible business and likely should pack it in.

Yeah, exactly. I don't if it is all as doom and gloom as Heavy suggests. I know around here chain restaurants and big box stores are the ones all going out of business, and even in the suburbs, small restaurants, breweries and shops are opening all the time and thriving. On the topic of Google ratings, the big businesses are the ones with terrible reviews. The internet is also a boon to helping new business get a reputation quickly, where before a small place may take years to get discovered, I see lots of great small businesses become hits overnight.

Back when a professional restaurant reviewer had all the clout, there was a lot of talk of bias and disdain for them as well. And it was much tougher for a niche business to enter the game.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Agreed. And that's why I'm totally confused when a Calgarian rates a fellow Calgarian's business three stars (general rating discussion here; not FG in particular) because the service was good, but not above and beyond enough. Okay, sorry I'm too busy making pizzas at my pizzeria to make you feel special enough. More of those three-star reviews and I'll be out of business and you can enjoy Boston Pizza, I guess.

Hey I get it 100 percent. I’ve worked for small businesses before and bad reviews are a tough receipt but at the end of the day customers are king and you have to work with what they give you. Way back in the day before the internet relationships were built on good will, word of mouth and generally good hearted experiences. Objectively standing back on everything here and considering that I haven’t heard from the business in question I honestly don’t think their best course of action was to get in a pissing match with Flames_Gimp. They should have continued to work with him rather than approaching with an adversarial tone they should have approached him with a ‘what can we do to make this right’ tone. I mean FG could have said ‘you know what take it all back’ at the first signs of an experience that was different than what he was expecting but he constantly gave the business the opportunity to make it right, which to their credit they had done albeit through some difficulties, FG is spending good money to him so he’s earned a right to place a rating on his experience. If they had maybe offered throw in the cover does it encourage FG to maybe change the review? Or update his review with a positive change? I mean the business already invested how many return trips to make it right? They’re probably haemorrhaging on their margins with this sale now and they want to challenge the customer?? I don’t get that angle from a small business because at the end of the day their customers are their lively hood.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Swift

As someone pointed out earlier, it's the chains that have the worst Google ratings anyway. Take a look at pizza hut, Domino's, Papa John's for pizza, or KFC, McDonald's, DQ, etc. All rated in the 2s and 3s, so if anybody's winning in the ratings game it's not the big guys.

That’s the argument though… big business and chains don’t have to worry about negative reviews because regardless of experience people still go to them just because of the shear amount of those businesses being the obvious or convenient option for most consumers. Does McDonald’s take off in the 50’s/60’s like it did if the internet and negative reviews are all over them? A negative review for a small business can be crippling where as all those businesses you mentioned usually sport 2’s and 3’s yet continue to grow with no end in sight. It’s as uneven of a playing field for the small guys as it’s ever been and if you don’t see that I don’t know what to tell ya.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

That’s the argument though… big business and chains don’t have to worry about negative reviews because regardless of experience people still go to them just because of the shear amount of those businesses being the obvious or convenient option for most consumers. Does McDonald’s take off in the 50’s/60’s like it did if the internet and negative reviews are all over them? A negative review for a small business can be crippling where as all those businesses you mentioned usually sport 2’s and 3’s yet to continue to grow with no end in sight. It’s as uneven of a playing field for the small guys as it’s ever been and if you don’t see that I don’t know what to tell ya.

And they also have defenses small businesses don't. Advertising budgets. Promotions. Better locations. Name recognition. Corporate support. Pseudo-monopolies in certain areas. Cost advantages due to scale.

Small businesses are much more defenseless and therefore disproportionately affected by negative reviews.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Sliver

And they also have defenses small businesses don't. Advertising budgets. Promotions. Better locations. Name recognition. Corporate support. Pseudo-monopolies in certain areas. Cost advantages due to scale.

Small businesses are much more defenseless and therefore disproportionately affected by negative reviews.

This is just it… I think of Mr. Burns and his line of high priced lawyers versus Lionel Hutts that ‘law talking guy’. It’s silly to try and claim big business is at the mercy of a bad review. They have thousands and thousands yet continue to thrive. Apples and oranges.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Really? Because Boston Pizza is going to have better service than almost any independent small-business-style pizza joint. Like, there's going to be a cute hostess or two welcoming you, attentive wait staff, kitchen staff, managers, etc. From a service perspective, they will be better basically every time, won't they?

Like, go to Tom's House of Pizza. You'll often talk to the guy who is making your pizza to place your order. If he's on the phone or there are a couple of people ahead of you, I can tell you the service will be much worse than a well-staffed BPs.

Should Tom's get three stars for service and BP five? It's probably accurate, but is that what we want to be doing to small businesses? I don't. That's why I would never penalize a business like Tom's with a 3 star, whether it's technically fair or not. I'd give him five if I was happy or not rate it at all if I wasn't. Why do I want to take time out of my day to take food off his table? I just don't get the mentality.

It depends on your interpretation and expectations towards service and product quality though.

In your example of Tom's the location on Macleod has a rating of 4.1 stars - 392 reviews.

The closest BP near Chinook has a rating of 3.9 stars - 800 reviews.

This kind of contradicts your whole notion of small business being penalized visa vis google reviews - no? If someone is shopping purely on reviews they would go to Tom's .

[Swift]

That was my point too. Almost all of the independent restaurants have ratings of 4 stars and over.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Really? Because Boston Pizza is going to have better service than almost any independent small-business-style pizza joint. Like, there's going to be a cute hostess or two welcoming you, attentive wait staff, kitchen staff, managers, etc. From a service perspective, they will be better basically every time, won't they?

Like, go to Tom's House of Pizza. You'll often talk to the guy who is making your pizza to place your order. If he's on the phone or there are a couple of people ahead of you, I can tell you the service will be much worse than a well-staffed BPs.

Should Tom's get three stars for service and BP five? It's probably accurate, but is that what we want to be doing to small businesses? I don't. That's why I would never penalize a business like Tom's with a 3 star, whether it's technically fair or not. I'd give him five if I was happy or not rate it at all if I wasn't. Why do I want to take time out of my day to take food off his table? I just don't get the mentality.

I've been to BP's all over small town Alberta, they are far and away the worst when if comes to service. Generally understaffed, underpaid, underengaged.