Treliving’s UFA signings……. Starting to look like a strength

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

yeah maybe they would have. But frolik isn't the big mistake Raymond, brouwer, and Neal were the big mistakes. Those moves deserve more blame than keeping frolik imo .

I agree as I labeled Frolik as a good signing and the other 3 as bad-horrendous. I do think Frolik’s 4.3M would have come in handy when they were trying to get Tkachuk to extend. I don’t remember Raymond’s buyout doing any damage.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree I loved the Neal signing when it was announced. The flames came off a brutal year offensively the previous year and needed some top 6 help. Lindholm was added at the cost of Ferland but there were no other upgrades. Neal represented the 25 goals/50 points the Flames were missing the previous year.

I was a big fan of that summer. Hamilton/Ferland for Hanifin/Lindholm was a move I liked and adding Ryan and Czarnik had promise but I still thought they needed more.

When the Flames got Neal I figured they added a sniper with some edge to his game who would fit amazing with Monahan and Gaudreau. When Lindholm took the spot it is quick to see Neal was not a fit with Backlund and Tkachuk and it failed miserably from there

Neal was never a sniper, if anything he was a power forward that lost a step. He scores garbage goals.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree as I labeled Frolik as a good signing and the other 3 as bad-horrendous. I do think Frolik’s 4.3M would have come in handy when they were trying to get Tkachuk to extend. I don’t remember Raymond’s buyout doing any damage.

obviously not having frolik would make it easier to sign Tkachuk. In fact u could say that about any of the significant cap hits carried by the Flames that season. The worst of which is the Brouwer buyout. Second worst is Neal / Lucic . Raymond didn't effect anything but was a bad move all the same .

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Neal was never a sniper, if anything he was a power forward that lost a step. He scores garbage goals.

Did you watch Neal at all before he came to Alberta because you might want to walk that take back? Neal had a deadly release and was absolutely a sniper in his prime

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Did you watch Neal at all before he came to Alberta because you might want to walk that take back? Neal had a deadly release and was absolutely a sniper in his prime

Yes I did watch him in Nashville and Vegas. Not much in Pittsburgh. He had an okay shot but absolutely scored most of his goals from driving the net, not from sniping.

[FlamesAddiction]

He was also one of the most consistent scorers among this generation of players, scoring at least 20 goals in 10 straight seasons and had 100 playoff games during that time.

I still maintain that on the day he was signed, it was not a bad decision. Treliving could not have predicted that he would have mentally retired after getting the big contract.

[CSharp]

It's hard to judge what some of the bad signings would've been like if a good coach was actually behind the bench and utilizing everyone's capabilities. Who know if there was actually something going on with Brouwer and Neal coming off of championship teams and then be such a huge bust with the Flames. It's the same thing with buying tools - if you don't use your tools properly, they're just not gonna work out.

As for Hiller, it's either he's past his prime when he joined the Flames but coming from the Ducks to the Flames kind of exposed him to be not that good of a goalie. Like most butterfly goalies, if you have a good team in front of you, not a problem. The guy can go down on his knees all night in one spot and still have a great save percentage. However, with the Flames teams of previous season, those immobile butterfly goalies usually get scored on when the team runs around their own zone for more than half the game. A good example of that right now is Koskinen with the Oilers. A typical immobile butterfly goalie. When the team in front of him plays well, he'll make the necessary saves. When the Oilers D, suck, you blame him for having bad goals.

Markstrom - still on the fence with him since I think Tre paid too much for a goalie on a team that's mediocre the past few seasons. For his price Tre could've signed a couple of truculent right wingers that would've helped the team last year. I guess it doesn't matter now as Markstrom is now the Kipper for Sutter.

[GioforPM]

^ Well there were reasons good teams were less than eager to bring back Neal despite his scoring.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Yes, younger goalies tend to play better in finals. No cup winning goalie in NHL history was a UFA signing with prior NHL experience. Most are homegrown and under the age of 30.

This is one of these odd facts that remain true until it does not. Just like for decades there was no European-born player to captain a NHL team to a championship, this one in principle does not make any sense. Domink Hasek technically does not qualify as a UFA goalie, because Detroit acquired him in a trade. But he was a goalie that won the Cup in his mid-thirties with a team that did not draft him, and added him late.

I personally think it is only a matter of time before a UFA goalie wins a championship. It is weird that it hasn't happened already, since there is no rationale for why it has not happened.


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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is one of these odd facts that remain true until it does not. Just like for decades there was no European-born player to captain a NHL team to a championship, this one in principle does not make any sense. Domink Hasek technically does not qualify as a UFA goalie, because Detroit acquired him in a trade. But he was a goalie that won the Cup in his mid-thirties with a team that did not draft him, and added him late.

I personally think it is only a matter of time before a UFA goalie wins a championship. It is weird that it hasn't happened already, since there is no rationale for why it has not happened.

I can't speak to the pre-cap era, but I think it's fair to say that championship teams have allocated a minimal percentage of their cap to their prime-age goalies. I think either Marc-Andre Fleury in 2009 or Jonathan Quick in 2014 had the highest cap hit percentage of a cup-winning goaltender in the cap era - and both were still in their mid-20s. In the case of the former, he was arguably the primary reason they won the cup since he stood on his head at age 24.

Actually I think Vasilevskiy in 2021 might take that award, but we all know about the LTIR loopholing that Tampa did with Kucherov. Their window might have closed with the departures of Coleman and Gourde.

IMO the idea that goalies hit their prime later is a myth. Most goalies get trusted to play start minutes when they're already about to begin losing athleticism (even Kipprusoff) but sometimes these guys were perfectly in-the-prime while toiling away in the AHL. All goalie seasons are pretty hit-or-miss in a given year and a lot of the so-called "development" years are really just their prime years being wasted in the wrong league. I have no way to prove it, so I guess it'll just have to remain my opinion.

I also think playoff schedules - game-every-other-night - are very difficult for a 35+ year old goaltender. Your body just doesn't recover that quickly at that age.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah still only a month and change into season two, but through two years he's providing top pairing work on a 4/5 salary.

He is going to have to decline a lot in the rest of his contract to not be worth the dollars given the value he's booked already.

I was iffy on the signing too as I thought he was going to be more a 4 in years one and two and a 6 in years 3 and 4.

In year one, Tanev played like a $7M defenseman. At least.

So far in year two, he is looking similar, or at least close to that again.

He only needs to play like a $2M guy in the final two years, to have earned his contract. And that seems like a pretty safe bet at this point.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Markstrom was a great signing. He was the premier goalie available that year and was wanted by multiple teams - the big fish if you will. He was one of the biggest free agent signings in franchise history. Even if he wasn't producing results, you can't argue with the signing at the time. At this point, that is moot since he is performing up to expectations.

That's the thing with the Brouwer and Neal signings at the time as well. The team needed those types of players at the time and the logic of signing them was sound. It's too bad that they didn't work out, but I can't fault Treliving for what he was thinking at the time.

Had they been signed under Sutter he probably would have talked about their conditioning being poor. I think they likely would have been benched especially if their play was costing team wins. Sutter could see a mile away if their play on other teams was suspect, The guys brought in this season are hard working honest and play a 200 foot game.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Did you watch Neal at all before he came to Alberta because you might want to walk that take back? Neal had a deadly release and was absolutely a sniper in his prime

Neal was always a flawed player that had to ride shotgun with serious creators to succeed. Even years ago in Nashville he was heavily sheltered in terms of ridiculous OZ start % let alone what he's become now or was with the Flames.

The problem was his attitude stinks, which didn't allow him to age well into a secondary scoring/checking role once he lost what little speed he had to begin with. It was a bad deal considering Tre was chasing a James Neal in his prime, only 5 seasons removed from anything close to that.