Jacob Markstrom (is better than Cam Talbot)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dino7c

In this scenario Markstrom smashes the SO record in the over 100 year old league.

Yes he wins obviously

You are also suggesting the Flames are equal to the Panthers as a team

One goal would.have beaten the Ducks, Preds, and Stars. There were plenty of chances

Bobrovsky is pacing for 45 wins in 45 games
Markstrom is pacing for 37 wins in 67 games

Both guys keep up their pace, Bobrovsky takes it easily.

Statistically speaking, the Panthers and Flames ARE similar tier teams. I'd take two of their gamebreakers (Barkov and Bobrovsky) over our equivalents (Lindholm and Markstrom) but it's not a huge gap otherwise.

Bobrovsky has allowed 3+ goals in a game 1 time (on 47 shots against)

Markstrom has allowed 3 goals in a game 4 times (on fewer than 32 shots against four times)

[Knightslayer]

I don't understand the point of these arguments. Just enjoy the wins.

[dino7c]

NHL shutout record would take the Vezina

Either way Markstrom has had an elite start... struggling to find someone who has had a better start proves he has not been average

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

I don't understand the point of these arguments. Just enjoy the wins.

Yep one guy that wants the Vezina in the conversation 11 games into a season and the other trying really hard to discredit 4 shut outs in 9 starts and elite overall numbers.

[GreenLantern2814]

I’m happy to be wrong, and nothing I said was invalid.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yep one guy that wants the Vezina in the conversation 11 games into a season and the other trying really hard to discredit 4 shut outs in 9 starts and elite overall numbers.

I think the Vezina thing was just describing his play so far, which has been tops.

I don’t think anybody is trying to argue they should hand it out in November.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think the Vezina thing was just describing his play so far, which has been tops.

I don’t think anybody is trying to argue they should hand it out in November.

Exactly...

My buddy said Markstrom has been average and not Vezina caliber thus far. That is why I suggested he would be a finalist and likely win if it was handed out today.

But yeah both sides many sides


Markstrom sure as hell has been closer to elite than average no matter how it's spun

That is the only point I am making.

Give credit where credit is due....even if it means you were wrong. See my sig

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yep one guy that wants the Vezina in the conversation 11 games into a season and the other trying really hard to discredit 4 shut outs in 9 starts and elite overall numbers.

That’s not really it though

When there was dialogue about the team problems being core or coaches, there were some frequent and notable posters telling us how they look at things from a balanced perspective. Some of us were really leaning towards coaches and explaining why.

The simple idea that 2019 showed the team had a lot of talent and were underachieving individually and collectively. We discussed players, we discussed systems, but making the case that the string of bad coaches were at fault was met with the “balanced view” that the same core were getting the same results, so how could they not be materially responsible

Now we are talking about Markstrom’s performance

I shared some perspectives from Sutter on what is important for shutouts plus some data Woodley described on the types of chances being allowed and how it favours goaltenders.

I find that to have a good conversation about goaltending, you have key ingredients including what the team allows, essentially the demands being placed on the goalie. That’s perspective.

In both cases, turns out coaching matters

Extrapolating a hot start to 25+ shutouts is fantasy. Awesome so far, technically possible, but unlikely.

Acknowledging the team contribution to shutouts isn’t discrediting them in my opinion. It is giving them context

I am not arguing with Sutter on this, he gets it

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I’m happy to be wrong, and nothing I said was invalid.

Fair enough, you aren't doubling and tripling down after the start he has had

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That’s not really it though

When there was dialogue about the team problems being core or coaches, there were some frequent and notable posters telling us how they look at things from a balanced perspective. Some of us were really leaning towards coaches and explaining why.

The simple idea that 2019 showed the team had a lot of talent and were underachieving individually and collectively. We discussed players, we discussed systems, but making the case that the string of bad coaches were at fault was met with the “balanced view” that the same core were getting the same results, so how could they not be materially responsible

Now we are talking about Markstrom’s performance

I shared some perspectives from Sutter on what is important for shutouts plus some data Woodley described on the types of chances being allowed and how it favours goaltenders.

I find that to have a good conversation about goaltending, you have key ingredients including what the team allows, essentially the demands being placed on the goalie. That’s perspective.

In both cases, turns out coaching matters

Extrapolating a hot start to 25+ shutouts is fantasy. Awesome so far, technically possible, but unlikely.

Acknowledging the team contribution to shutouts isn’t discrediting them in my opinion. It is giving them context

I am not arguing with Sutter on this, he gets it

Thanks for summarizing your view again but that wasn't what I was talking about.

But I'm not beating the Markstrom is a saviour drum at all. The system is air tight they are playing well, and they have an above average goaltender in net that is contributing to their success.

[dino7c]

Markstrom has a 45 save shutout

Team has been mostly solid but not to the point any goalie would be putting up these numbers.

Plenty of credit to go around

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Markstrom has a 45 save shutout

Team has been mostly solid but not to the point any goalie would be putting up these numbers.

Plenty of credit to go around

That 45 save shutout was one game. It was an awesome game by him. Full marks for the win. And lots of quality saves in that one

I will say that other goalies have had 45 save shutouts. It’s fairly rare, but not like it hasn’t been done before.

Hasek had a 70 save playoff shutout and Ben Scrivens had a 59 save shutout with Edmonton.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I’m happy to be wrong, and nothing I said was invalid.

nnnn

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I think the best goalie the Flames have had since Kiprusoff is Talbot.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That 45 save shutout was one game. It was an awesome game by him. Full marks for the win. And lots of quality saves in that one

I will say that other goalies have had 45 save shutouts. It’s fairly rare, but not like it hasn’t been done before.

Hasek had a 70 save playoff shutout and Ben Scrivens had a 59 save shutout with Edmonton.

Your point?

Markstrom has not been average this season.

You were complaining about his save percentage early in this thread....now that it's ridiculously high. Goal posts

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But I'm not beating the Markstrom is a saviour drum at all. The system is air tight they are playing well, and they have an above average goaltender in net that is contributing to their success.

Nothing you've said is in contrast to anything I've said.

You said I was "discrediting" his shutouts but that's not true.

He earned his shutouts. I never even said all his shutouts were easy.

What I said however, is that what matters is a win.

A 3-4 loss followed by a 6-0 win is not as effective as a 3-2 win followed by a 6-2 win - even if the GAA in both scenarios is 2.00

I'm done with this thread. It seems my point is being wholely and entirely missed by people that just want to beat the shutout drum.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Nothing you've said is in contrast to anything I've said.

You said I was "discrediting" his shutouts but that's not true.

He earned his shutouts. I never even said all his shutouts were easy.

What I said however, is that what matters is a win.

A 3-4 loss followed by a 6-0 win is not as effective as a 3-2 win followed by a 6-2 win - even if the GAA in both scenarios is 2.00

I'm done with this thread. It seems my point is being wholely and entirely missed by people that just want to beat the shutout drum.

Has Markstrom been closer to elite or average this season so far?

One word answer please


Posters who bent over backwards to show us he wasn't very good are now bending over backwards to downplay his solid numbers

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Nothing you've said is in contrast to anything I've said.

You said I was "discrediting" his shutouts but that's not true.

He earned his shutouts. I never even said all his shutouts were easy.

What I said however, is that what matters is a win.

A 3-4 loss followed by a 6-0 win is not as effective as a 3-2 win followed by a 6-2 win - even if the GAA in both scenarios is 2.00

I'm done with this thread. It seems my point is being wholely and entirely missed by people that just want to beat the shutout drum.

Honestly your point isn't being missed but I am failing to see what your end goal is with your arguments. No goalie is perfect.

The best goalie on earth right now IMO and for years to come will be Shesterkin. And he let in about 4 weak goals on Saturday. Does that mean he isn't a great goalie? No.

Martin brodeur, Hasek, Roy, Kipper, all elite goalies had off games.

Heck Kipper had off years. Not just off games.

Markstrom has been one of the best goalies this year just enjoy the saves and wins when they come.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Your point?

Markstrom has not been average this season.

You were complaining about his save percentage early in this thread....now that it's ridiculously high. Goal posts

I think if you follow my sequence of posts, they are pretty consistent as the whole picture is built out

I don’t particularly like the goalies overly reliant on blocking style, didn’t like his rebound control last year (which seems improved so far, on his part plus on the team cleaning up chances)

And you do know what one bad start does to sv% on a small sample, right? Look at Shesterkin pre and post Flames

Markstrom has been average career wise, is being put in the best position to succeed in his career

I also said I expected significant improvement from Markstrom this year under Sutter. Guess what? I was right

I agree with Sutter’s statement about shutouts being team concept oriented as long as your goalie is good enough

Markstrom is good enough, but 3 of the 4 shutouts were pretty easy, I don’t need to change my jeans based on what I have seen.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Markstrom has been average career wise, is being put in the best position to succeed in his career

No he really hasn't been. 960 had a goalie guru talk about stats sometime in the off season about how while in Vancouver when you broke down the expected goals for Markstrom was an elite goalie in Vancouver.

Problem was Vancouver gave up a lot of chances that hurt his numbers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Bobrovsky is pacing for 45 wins in 45 games
Markstrom is pacing for 37 wins in 67 games

Both guys keep up their pace, Bobrovsky takes it easily.

Statistically speaking, the Panthers and Flames ARE similar tier teams. I'd take two of their gamebreakers (Barkov and Bobrovsky) over our equivalents (Lindholm and Markstrom) but it's not a huge gap otherwise.

Bobrovsky has allowed 3+ goals in a game 1 time (on 47 shots against)

Markstrom has allowed 3 goals in a game 4 times (on fewer than 32 shots against four times)

Kinda depends when Bob gets back in, though currently day to day.