Should there be a cap on LTIR?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That is exactly what some people seem to be worried about. Some are even imagining that teams will make up injuries so they can keep their stars off the roster all season long and reactivate them for the playoffs. I can't imagine any NHLer worth having on a team consenting to that. All these guys want to play.

You have to be a real powerful team or in a garbage division to pull it off. Tampa was powerhouse enough that they could go the entire season without Kucherov and still make the playoffs. If they were fighting for a playoff spot and needed him it would be a different story.

For Vegas - assuming Calgary and Edmonton keep at their current level - they will need the rest of the division to suck - which is entirely possible.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You have to be a real powerful team or in a garbage division to pull it off. Tampa was powerhouse enough that they could go the entire season without Kucherov and still make the playoffs. If they were fighting for a playoff spot and needed him it would be a different story.

For Vegas - assuming Calgary and Edmonton keep at their current level - they will need the rest of the division to suck - which is entirely possible.

It's not even the "coming back from the playoffs" thing that bugs me about Vegas. It's the "using their LTIR they got from injured players to add a $10M franchise C, who was on another team's LTIR and is now on their LTIR, giving even more LTIR cap relief to get more players while doing nothing to help their immediate injury problems, which is what LTIR cap relief is meant for."

Super long sentence short: You shouldn't be allowed to spend LTIR cap relief on other players who are already on LTIR with their current teams. (I believe other limits should be imposed as well, but the concept of not being able to spend injury relief on more injured players should be a no-brainer.)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

It's not even the "coming back from the playoffs" thing that bugs me about Vegas. It's the "using their LTIR they got from injured players to add a $10M franchise C, who was on another team's LTIR and is now on their LTIR, giving even more LTIR cap relief to get more players while doing nothing to help their immediate injury problems, which is what LTIR cap relief is meant for."

Super long sentence short: You shouldn't be allowed to spend LTIR cap relief on other players who are already on LTIR with their current teams. (I believe other limits should be imposed as well, but the concept of not being able to spend injury relief on more injured players should be a no-brainer.)

That has always seems weird to me as well. I remember when the idea of allowing teams to exceed the cap with LTIR first came about. The purpose was so that teams could replace injured players. I don't think it was ever intended so that a team could acquire injured players without having to worry about their cap hit.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

It's not even the "coming back from the playoffs" thing that bugs me about Vegas. It's the "using their LTIR they got from injured players to add a $10M franchise C, who was on another team's LTIR and is now on their LTIR, giving even more LTIR cap relief to get more players while doing nothing to help their immediate injury problems, which is what LTIR cap relief is meant for."

Super long sentence short: You shouldn't be allowed to spend LTIR cap relief on other players who are already on LTIR with their current teams. (I believe other limits should be imposed as well, but the concept of not being able to spend injury relief on more injured players should be a no-brainer.)

If Vegas had no one in LTIR they’d have done the exact same trade the exact same way, no? What would have been different if Vegas had no one injured and acquired Eichel? Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see why it mattered.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

If Vegas had no one in LTIR they’d have done the exact same trade the exact same way, no? What would have been different if Vegas had no one injured and acquired Eichel? Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see why it mattered.

You are not missing anything. Calgary would have done the exact same thing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

If Vegas had no one in LTIR they’d have done the exact same trade the exact same way, no? What would have been different if Vegas had no one injured and acquired Eichel? Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see why it mattered.

Well, since Eichel is injured (assuming he can somehow be seamless moved to LTIR) they could do it, but they’d be running a pretty big risk that he’d be ready well before POs and they’d not be cap compliant.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

If Vegas had no one in LTIR they’d have done the exact same trade the exact same way, no? What would have been different if Vegas had no one injured and acquired Eichel? Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see why it mattered.

You have to be cap-compliant with your 23 man roster before you can put a player on LTIR. Even though Eichel is injured, he couldn't be acquired and put directly on LTIR, you would need to have the $10 million in cap room to add him first (minus how ever much cap hit was sent to Buffalo in return for the trade).

Because Vegas could add Pacioretty and Stone to LTIR before the trade, they had over $10 million in space to work with. Also, because they sent Tuch's $4.75 million cap hit the other way, they only needed to make room for $5.25 million to add Eichel.


For the Flames to acquire Eichel, they would have needed to clear about $9 million because they were about $1 million under the cap before Duehr was called up. If Tkachuk or Monahan had gone the other way, they still would have needed to clear $2-3 million to make the Eichel deal.

If Vegas had a fully-healthy roster, they wouldn't have been able to make the deal as they did without moving some cap around, or sending more than just Tuch back to Buffalo.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

No, but in the playoffs the combined AAV of players should have to be cap compliant

I think they could consider moving to the baseball model. Having a playoff roster, which can be set ahead of every round. Completely reasonable that the playoff roster must be cap compliant.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

It's simple, if a player isn't off LTIR before last game of season, they should be ineligible for playoffs. If team wants them in the playoffs, good luck becoming cap compliant before playoffs.

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The only problem with that is if a player or multiple players get seriously injured just right before the playoffs and put into the LTIR but becomes ready to play as the team makes it deeper in to the playoffs. I guess you'd put those players as day-to-day and if they're still counted as part of the team cap, the team won't be able to call anyone up if the team is up against the cap. This one probably needs a bit more logistics to make it bomb-proof against loopholes. It'll be great if they make a similar rule like that of trading deadlines. If a player is not taken off LTIR by a certain date before the playoffs, they're basically in-eligible and cannot be played in the playoffs. And thus, their names shouldn't even be on the Cup if the team wins it in the end.

I think the cap count remaining into the end of the team's journey into the playoff would be the most sound since there's no way around that.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, since Eichel is injured (assuming he can somehow be seamless moved to LTIR) they could do it, but they’d be running a pretty big risk that he’d be ready well before POs and they’d not be cap compliant.

This is the part I think is the same. LTIR does not accumulate. If Stone and Pacioretty are back eichel can’t come off IR without significant cap moves. I think.

Originally Posted by getbak

If Vegas had a fully-healthy roster, they wouldn't have been able to make the deal as they did without moving some cap around, or sending more than just Tuch back to Buffalo.

Thanks for the added info. Could Buffalo not have put him on LTIR first? Or are you saying even if a player is on LTIR once he is traded he comes off and then the new team has to put him back on? (And needs the cap space for that maneuver)

To use the flames example if Buf stayed above the floor with eichel on LTIR and traded him to Calgary, would the flames have to clear salary before or only when he comes off LTIR?

[JackIsBack]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

No. Players on IR aren't playing for you.

No.... but only when trading for players on LTIR just for draft picks that will never play for your team - there needs to be rules for that and a claw back formula - otherwise, you can't punish teams just because they were bitten by the injury bug.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Or are you saying even if a player is on LTIR once he is traded he comes off and then the new team has to put him back on? (And needs the cap space for that maneuver)

It's my understanding that this is the case.

To use the flames example if Buf stayed above the floor with eichel on LTIR and traded him to Calgary, would the flames have to clear salary before or only when he comes off LTIR?

Before.

LTIR was never intended to help teams acquire injured players via trade. It's a pretty freakish circumstance that put Vegas in a position to use it that way. I personally would wait to see if it happens twice before I consider it a loophole big enough to need closing.

[calumniate]

Tampa acquired Brent Seabrook this summer. Lol!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

This is the part I think is the same. LTIR does not accumulate. If Stone and Pacioretty are back eichel can’t come off IR without significant cap moves. I think.



Thanks for the added info. Could Buffalo not have put him on LTIR first? Or are you saying even if a player is on LTIR once he is traded he comes off and then the new team has to put him back on? (And needs the cap space for that maneuver)

To use the flames example if Buf stayed above the floor with eichel on LTIR and traded him to Calgary, would the flames have to clear salary before or only when he comes off LTIR?

My understanding is that LTIR is team specific as the opinions are of that team's medical staff. He would be acquired as an active player and the acquiring team would need to submit the paperwork to put him on the LTIR. It would be the new team's medical staff that would need to sign off on it.

I am unsure whether the NHL has ever, or would ever, block a trade based on this though.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

It's my understanding that this is the case.



Before.

LTIR was never intended to help teams acquire injured players via trade. It's a pretty freakish circumstance that put Vegas in a position to use it that way. I personally would wait to see if it happens twice before I consider it a loophole big enough to need closing.

Chicago did the same thing in 2015. Kane got hurt and went on LTIR. They traded for a boatload of guys, Kane came back for the playoffs and they won the cup.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Tampa acquired Brent Seabrook this summer. Lol!

True, but Tyler Johnson went the other way. That was just a weird trade.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Chicago did the same thing in 2015. Kane got hurt and went on LTIR. They traded for a boatload of guys, Kane came back for the playoffs and they won the cup.

That's different, because Kane was a Blackhawk all along. The whole point of LTIR is so you can go out and acquire replacements for your injured players. Vegas is the first team to use it so they could acquire a player who was already injured.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

LTIR was never intended to help teams acquire injured players via trade. It's a pretty freakish circumstance that put Vegas in a position to use it that way. I personally would wait to see if it happens twice before I consider it a loophole big enough to need closing.

Ah. I’m with you.

In that case what LTIR gave Vegas was time - the downside being a struggling team but we’ll ignore that for now. Rather than trading Reilly and McNabb for maybe a couple 3rds they can wait to the deadline and get a couple 2nds.

In the flames case the would have to have traded salary to Buffalo or elsewhere for whatever they could get. And probably at a discount.

This feels like luck more than a systemic issue, to me.