[Signing] Flames re-sign Michael Stone (1 yr, $750k)

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Which top GMs are looking for work? And out of those candidates who are looking for work, which ones actually have the chops to be top GMs? The answer to the first question seems to be ‘None’, and to the second, ‘There's no good way to tell.’

Coaches are a little easier, but are you seriously arguing that the Flames need to fire Darryl Sutter to bring in a top coach?

I'm more so commenting on where the Flames seems to be spending their money and whether it's effective use of that money.

I'm not advocating for firing Darryl now, or even Treliving for that matter. But they will both be replaced at some point, and until this team shows that they are willing to pay/overpay for top coaches and front office, or that their current approach for overpaying for the likes of Gudbranson and bringing in guys like Stone, Richardson etc actually lead to wins, I will question their approach.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

I'm more so commenting on where the Flames seems to be spending their money and whether it's effective use of that money.

I'm not advocating for firing Darryl now, or even Treliving for that matter. But they will both be replaced at some point, and until this team shows that they are willing to pay/overpay for top coaches and front office,

That's the thing. They did pay for Sutter. And since there is so little public information about what GMs make, and so few metrics to show whether they are worth their salaries, how would you even know if the Flames were willing to pay for top front-office people?

It seems to me you're criticizing their approach without even knowing what it is.

[GioforPM]

Yeah, I don’t think Sutter came cheap. I don’t think Peters was that cheap either.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, I don’t think Sutter came cheap. I don’t think Peters was that cheap either.

FWIW and by no means accurate but I have heard both negative flames personalities Nault and Francis both say that Sutter is making considerably less than he did in his last deal with LA.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Which top GMs are looking for work? And out of those candidates who are looking for work, which ones actually have the chops to be top GMs? The answer to the first question seems to be ‘None’, and to the second, ‘There's no good way to tell.’

Coaches are a little easier, but are you seriously arguing that the Flames need to fire Darryl Sutter to bring in a top coach?

Jeff Gorton.

Built the Bruins cup team in 2 weeks and did a good job in New York. Fired because of a meddling owner.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's the thing. They did pay for Sutter. And since there is so little public information about what GMs make, and so few metrics to show whether they are worth their salaries, how would you even know if the Flames were willing to pay for top front-office people?

It seems to me you're criticizing their approach without even knowing what it is.

And I did say in my first post that I would be curious to know the actual numbers. You're right, I'm speculating. But like I said, I feel like with the history of hires like Gulutzan, Ward, the first time assistants and even Treliving, this team appears to me to be limiting its budget for support staff, which in my opinion limits what we can get out of an 82M roster.

IF that is the case, I was wondering out loud if we should invest more in coaches and front office, even if it meant at the expense of being a cap team on the ice.

Again, I do not know if this is actually the case. But hiring guys like Treliving, Gulutzan and Ward seem to be cost minimizing moves. But if there's another reason for it, I'd understand as well.

As for doling out the money for Darryl, yes that's fantastic, but it was after wasting 4+ years of prime Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio and the rest of the core.

[Goriders]

I like the stone signing. I was hoping they’d re-sign him.

The Gudbranson signing was out of the blue though. Figured they would fill that spot with Mackey.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

FWIW and by no means accurate but I have heard both negative flames personalities Nault and Francis both say that Sutter is making considerably less than he did in his last deal with LA.

I suspect that’s true, but I also think it’s probably the highest salary for a Calgary coach since the other Sutter.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

This is probably true, but I wonder if it would be more productive to overpay and bring in a top coach and GM at above-market value rather than overpay a UFA or current player the same amount.

Sutter has 3 ####ing cups since 04 (yeah I said it) he is a top coach. Maybe the top coach.

GM is tough, who wants to come here? If Tre is in a better market the Flames have Stone, Kadri, and Brown right now IMO...its one of the tougher GM jobs in the league.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's the thing. They did pay for Sutter. And since there is so little public information about what GMs make, and so few metrics to show whether they are worth their salaries, how would you even know if the Flames were willing to pay for top front-office people?

It seems to me you're criticizing their approach without even knowing what it is.

Since there is no cap on what a team can spend on their front office, how much they actually make is irrelevant. If Treliving is below the poverty line or making a bil a year, I couldn't care less.

GMs actually have a really simple metric to show if they are worth whatever amount of money they make and that is playoff success. Treliving has almost none.

Every GM has a goal of winning the cup, and that is what they should be measured against.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

GMs actually have a really simple metric to show if they are worth whatever amount of money they make and that is playoff success. Treliving has almost none.

Every GM has a goal of winning the cup, and that is what they should be measured against.

Bull. In a capped league, winning the Cup is largely a matter of luck. The best roster in the league won't get you there unless they get hot at the right time, because there is so little separation between the top teams. And if you get hot enough, you don't even need to have one of the top teams to contend in the playoffs.

Is Bergevin suddenly the second-best GM in the league because his losing team rode a tailwind of magic fairy farts all the way to the Finals?

Only fans would be stupid enough to use that as a metric to judge management. Unfortunately, a lot of owners and a lot of media people also think like fans, which is a big part of why sports management in general is such a dysfunctional field.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ only fans would be stupid enough to use an actual result of success as a metric of management

Lol

Edit: username checks out

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ only fans would be stupid enough to use an actual result of success as a metric of management

Only fans would be stupid enough to use the result of a crapshoot as a measure of skill.

Congratulations, you just proved that you're a fan. The ‘lol’ is especially rich: ‘Duh, I don't understand this so it must be dumb.’

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Sutter has 3 ####ing cups since 04 (yeah I said it) he is a top coach. Maybe the top coach.

GM is tough, who wants to come here? If Tre is in a better market the Flames have Stone, Kadri, and Brown right now IMO...its one of the tougher GM jobs in the league.

Yeah way to feel sorry for ourselves.

My whole point is that we shohld have had a top coach (whether you believe that's Sutter or whoever else) years ago. Same with a top GM. Instead we went with the likes of Treliving, Gulutzan, Ward, etc.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Only fans would be stupid enough to use the result of a crapshoot as a measure of skill.

Congratulations, you just proved that you're a fan. The ‘lol’ is especially rich: ‘Duh, I don't understand this so it must be dumb.’

We've had no success whatsoever in the past 15 years, maybe longer, so it must just be a total crapshoot...you in some kind of serious denial here????

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Sutter has 3 ####ing cups since 04 (yeah I said it) he is a top coach. Maybe the top coach.

GM is tough, who wants to come here? If Tre is in a better market the Flames have Stone, Kadri, and Brown right now IMO...its one of the tougher GM jobs in the league.

No one wants to play in Calgary? And yet Treliving seems to sign his UFA targets every year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

No one wants to play in Calgary? And yet Treliving seems to sign his UFA targets every year.

Does he? Or does he sometimes have to settle?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, I don’t think Sutter came cheap. I don’t think Peters was that cheap either.

According to Capfriendly:


Ward was paid $900,000
Peters was paid $2,000,000


Of the known salaries of current coaches it looks like the lowest paid is the HABs coach at $1.7 mil.



I would expect Sutter to be in the $3-5 mil range.



I seem to recall that the rumor was that CGY paid their coaches ok and the assistants the minimum (like $100,000-$300,000). I have to assume that's not the case anymore and that Muller is making close to $1 mil.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

No one wants to play in Calgary? And yet Treliving seems to sign his UFA targets every year.

Maybe he needs to do a better job of selecting targets. For most of his UFA signings he was competing with the KHL . There are a lot of swings and misses.

Coleman
Gudbrandson
Richardson
Lewis
Stone
Welenski
Werner
DeSimone


2020

Markstrom
Tanev
Leivo
Stone
Simon
Nordstrom
Dominique
Petrovic
Robinson

2019

Talbot
Rieder
Stone
Kirkland
Davidson
Froese


2018

Neal
Ryan
Robinson
Peluso
Graovac

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Yeah way to feel sorry for ourselves.

My whole point is that we shohld have had a top coach (whether you believe that's Sutter or whoever else) years ago. Same with a top GM. Instead we went with the likes of Treliving, Gulutzan, Ward, etc.

Acknowledging an obvious disadvantage, that everyone in the hockey world is aware of, is not “feeling sorry for ourselves”.