Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[sa226]

I wonder if a Sutter led team can have success with a solid buy unspectacular defense. Then divert more of your cap to the forward group.

Carolina won the cup with a very unspectacular defense group.

Hartleys system put a ton of pressure on the defenseman to retrieve and move the puck.

If most of your defense comes from structure and commitment from your forwards, perhaps you can get away with a D core with no true stud.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

2 weeks left in August and not even a sniff of real info on Johnny.
This is going to drag on and be a painful distraction for the team and especially us die hard fans. This GM has got to trade or re-sign Johnny before training camp. Just seems so crapy that other teams have taken care of so much business and we sit here wondering if 2 of our top 3 forwards are on their way out (Tkachuk).

Like it isn't painful enough to be a Flames fan

Johnny has a year left on his contract. Why would he re-sign after a down year?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Johnny has a year left on his contract. Why would he re-sign after a down year?

If you offered him a sweet 8 year deal. In other words, ignore the down year.

The Flames aren't getting him cheap, that's for sure. If they could, he'd be already inked by now.

[howard_the_duck]

If not for Sutter, I'm not very optimistic on this team.

I can't look at this team and say "THAT is the strength". Forwards are average, but fairly deep. Blueline is young and mobile, but lacks a top pairing. We lack the top talent at forward and on the blueline.

Good goaltending will likely mask some problems, maybe enough to scrape into the playoffs.

Short of adding a gamebreaker, I fear more of the same.

[djsFlames]

Blue line isn't nearly as productive as it once was.

At one time we could afford to lack consistent game breakers up front because you could rely on 120-130 points from Gio + Brodie + Wideman/Hamilton.

I'm not sure we have a 40 point d-man right now, barring a return to form for Andersson or a step offensively by Hanifin.

Damn... first time in almost a decade..

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Flames, unlike several of their rivals, have not handicapped themselves long-term with awful contracts. Worse comes to worse, they can pull the plug and go full rebuild to stock up quickly.

The Flames like most teams have serval long term contracts that may be awful over the next 3 seasons (or great if the players perform well)

For 23-24

Tkachuk 9M ( min)
Backlund 5.35
Coleman 4.9
Lindolm 4.85
Hanifin 4.95
Andersson 4.55
Tanev 4.5
Zaradov 4M ??
Markstrom 6M


9 out of 11 top-6 top-4 #1 goalie

48.1 M

add Gaudreau at 7.9 56 out of say 84 M

That is not an easy ship to turn around with 28M for 13 more roster players

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Johnny has a year left on his contract. Why would he re-sign after a down year?

I understand this. But the team can't afford him to get injured during the season and not be tradeable. The team should not be OK with the possibility of him not being tradeable at the deadline and having him become a ufa.

But I have said this before and am just venting my frustration

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Johnny has a year left on his contract. Why would he re-sign after a down year?

To hedge against another down year. See Hall, Taylor.


Athletes don't really think this way, but he has a lot more to lose than gain, depending on how much he values location control.


I couldn't find any rumoured offers from the Devils to Hall...I saw ARI may have been around 5x7.25...which would still work out to $4.25M more than Hall ended up with in that 5 year span (36.25 vs. 32M). Imagine if there ever was a 7x7 on the table for Hall...right now he'd need a 2x7.5M contract at age 34 to close that gap.


We saw in baseball that all of a sudden teams stopped paying a premium for aging players based on past performance. NHL teams seem to be getting a little smarter, notwithstanding the Hyman contract.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

are they really that much better considering all the picks they gave up? I think if the Flames gave away a bunch of high picks people wouldn't be too impressed that they were marginally better.

Trading 1sts should be reserved for Eichel, Hamilton, type deals...not decent players

As I said, you can question what they gave up. But the Flyers are absolutely in win now mode, and Fletcher has given them a better roster than last season.

Giroux (33)
Couturier (28)
Hayes (29)
JVR (32)
Atkinson (32)
Konecny (24)
Provorov (24)
Ellis (30)

Ownership and management have no interest in a rebuild. They’re a team that feels they have a playoff roster and expect to do some damage. And management feels they’ve underachieved and needed a shakeup.

That’s why they’re a good comparable for the Flames.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames like most teams have serval long term contracts that may be awful over the next 3 seasons (or great if the players perform well)

For 23-24

Tkachuk 9M ( min)
Backlund 5.35
Coleman 4.9
Lindolm 4.85
Hanifin 4.95
Andersson 4.55
Tanev 4.5
Zaradov 4M ??
Markstrom 6M


9 out of 11 top-6 top-4 #1 goalie

48.1 M

add Gaudreau at 7.9 56 out of say 84 M

That is not an easy ship to turn around with 28M for 13 more roster players

You're purposely exaggerating the facts to support your argument. Do you honestly believe that contracts like Hanifin and Lindholm are in any way difficult to move?

We're talking about the Flames ability to go scorched Earth and start from scratch. The Flames simply do not have the long term anchors that would prevent them from doing that.

Do the Flames have cap space tied up right now? Of course, as do all respectable NHL teams. And 56 allocated to the top 10 players is solid IMO. A second line winger costs $5million+ a season. That's the reality of today's NHL.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by blankall

IMO if you are tanking, the Colorado model makes a lot more sense. You push a winning culture. If it doesn't work, reload for 1-2 years, then rinse and repeat.

Hmmm the Colorado Model you say...

the one where they didn't quite have enough talent in their initial rebuild, so they traded the pieces of that rebuild (Duchene, Stastny) for an on the fly rebuild where they drafted 1st and 4th overall and were basement dwellers for several years?

Yea, I think we should follow that model too.

[Monahammer]

1st 2013, playoffs 2014, 2015 no playoffs picked 10th, 2016 no playoffs picked 10th, 2017 really bad, picked 4th.

so, playoffs once in 5 seasons to collect the main players (Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar) that they are now building on as contenders.

Sidenote, had they picked McAvoy or Chychrun in 2016 instead of Jost, they would be a juggernaut. Also they weren't to in love with their former 3rd overall pick Duchene to trade him for a set of picks that ended up including another 4th overall. Comparable to us trading Tkachuk perhaps.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah the Flyers have made some questionable moves for sure ...

Ellis
Ristolanen
Atkinson

for

Patrick
Hague
1st
2nd
2nd
7th
Voracek
Gostisbehere

Certainly made better by the puzzling Voracek deal (why did Columbus do that?), but not sure they're actually better.

They got better just by making some changes. Lateral moves perhaps but they need a change in locker room culture as i suspect the Flames do.

Here is Fletcher explaining it all

[Roof-Daddy]

Trade 1

Tkachuk, Kylington to STL for Parayko, Kyrou, Neighbors

Trade 2

Monahan, (BUF picks any TWO of Coronato, Zary, Pelletier, Neighbors), 2022 1st to BUF for Eichel w/ 20% retention

Sign Zadorov 4 x 4 million
Sign Dube & Valimaki 1 x 950k

Extend Gaudreau & Parayko prior to camp (ASAP)


Gaudreau - Eichel - Kyrou
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Coleman
Dube - Backlund - Pitlick
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis

Phillips, Ritchie

Hanifin - Parayko
Zadarov - Tanev
Valimaki - Andersson

Mackey

Markstrom
Vladar


$1.6 million cap space left

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Trade 1

Tkachuk, Kylington to STL for Parayko, Kyrou, Neighbors

Trade 2

Monahan, (BUF picks any TWO of Coronato, Zary, Pelletier, Neighbors), 2022 1st to BUF for Eichel w/ 20% retention

Sign Zadorov 4 x 4 million
Sign Dube & Valimaki 1 x 950k

Extend Gaudreau & Parayko prior to camp (ASAP)


Gaudreau - Eichel - Kyrou
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Coleman
Dube - Backlund - Pitlick
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis

Phillips, Ritchie

Hanifin - Parayko
Zadarov - Tanev
Valimaki - Andersson

Mackey

Markstrom
Vladar


$1.6 million cap space left

That is the type of offseason moves I would love. I like the look of that roster and feel like that blueline looks a lot better adding a legit top 4 to the mix. 3 members of the core moved out. Basically a Flames 2.0 for Treliving

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

1st 2013, playoffs 2014, 2015 no playoffs picked 10th, 2016 no playoffs picked 10th, 2017 really bad, picked 4th.

so, playoffs once in 5 seasons to collect the main players (Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar) that they are now building on as contenders.

Sidenote, had they picked McAvoy or Chychrun in 2016 instead of Jost, they would be a juggernaut. Also they weren't to in love with their former 3rd overall pick Duchene to trade him for a set of picks that ended up including another 4th overall. Comparable to us trading Tkachuk perhaps.

And if they picked Jones or Drouin instead of MacKinnon, they would still likely be an also-ran. Pointless exercise.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And if they picked Jones or Drouin instead of MacKinnon, they would still likely be an also-ran. Pointless exercise.

No one was considering that though, while Jost was a reach. Regardless, my point is that Colorado absolutely did what many here would consider a "tear down" style rebuild and were out of the playoffs for many years before winding back to success.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Flames, unlike several of their rivals, have not handicapped themselves long-term with awful contracts. Worse comes to worse, they can pull the plug and go full rebuild to stock up quickly.

I also think a lot of fans have become obsessed with the scorched Earth model, which unless you get lucky enough to draft Crosby, rarely works. Even if the Flames went that way, are they going to outsuck the Arizona's, Seattle's, Buffalos, etc.. of the league. Even if they do, with the new rules the odds of drafting #1 overall are far from a sure thing. The odds of the Flames coming out with a better duo than Gaudreau/Tkachuk, even from a full rebuild of 4 years or so are slim.

If you look at how scorched Earth teams are doing and who is winning the cup, it's pretty obvious that the scorched Earth rebuild isn't the way to win anymore. Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on their roster, but Stamkos played one game in 2019/20 and is far from their key forward anymore.

St. Louis had a #4 pick from 2008 on their team. They tanked in 2006 and ended up with Erik Johnson, who did not work out for them.

Meanwhile the recent perennial tankers, Buffalo, Edmonton, New Jersey, etc... seem totally lost.

IMO if you are tanking, the Colorado model makes a lot more sense. You push a winning culture. If it doesn't work, reload for 1-2 years, then rinse and repeat.

This

Not sure why everyone wants to rebuild. You could trade away everyone over like 28 and the team would still not be worst in the league. Like blow up the whole team for a 30-40% chance of a top 3 pick that maybe might be a difference maker?

Just seems moronic to me.

Like people do realize that we hit it out of the park with monahan right? That's the good outcome.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They got better just by making some changes. Lateral moves perhaps but they need a change in locker room culture as i suspect the Flames do.

IMO The single biggest reason explaining the Flames success through the first 60 games of 2019-19 season was the amount of change they went through in the offseason. Unfortunately we saw it couldn't sustain itself, like an energy boost from eating candy. But I'm surprised they've allowed that same core roster to continue to rot away after seeing the impact some changes had.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

IMO The single biggest reason explaining the Flames success through the first 60 games of 2019-19 season was the amount of change they went through in the offseason. Unfortunately we saw it couldn't sustain itself, like an energy boost from eating candy. But I'm surprised they've allowed that same core roster to continue to rot away after seeing the impact some changes had.

Not sure they allowed it at all.

The changes just didn't happen.

From there it's up to you.

Treliving is inept?
Treliving is too cautious?
Treliving is too reckless?
The offers weren't good enough?
Tough market with covid?
#### happens?
Trump's fault?

But we certainly heard Gaudreau and Monahan's names in the trade market last off season, and Monahan again this off season.

Unless you think changes should have been made after the Colorado playoff series, after a season finishing second overall.