Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Monahammer]

Out:

Top prospect (Patrick)
3 bottom 4 defencemen: Hague, Myers, Gostisbehere (Ghost is arguably a cap dump)
1 top 6 forward, Voracek (bad contract though)
picks (1st, 2x 2nd, 7th.)

In: Top 6 forward on a reasonable contract (Atkinson)
Top 4 RHD (Ellis, some would say even top 2)
RHD with massive offensive potential.


We could easily give up similar pieces to what philly did. It required them not to be too in love with "potential" or their own picks though. Our management has thus far proven incapable of that discretion.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah exactly.

We all have subjective opinions.

It's like when someone tells me they are a realist. Based on what? Why do you get to decide where that microscopic point between optimism and pessimism exists?

I know I annoy many with my optimistic takes on things, but honestly it's how I'm built. Did wonders for fighting cancer!

You certainly don't annoy me with your positive takes. Plenty of it is insightful when you provide advanced stats to back up your takes. It would be pretty boring here if the discussions were one-sided. Besides not all is bad with the organization as there are some good young prospects, nice roster players, and a new arena on the horizon. I mainly have issues with the direction of the team as well as some of the decisions made by the GM. The team missing the playoffs last season and only one second round appearance to show for 7 years of Treliving is the facts. I have seen some comparing the Flames record over Treliving's tenure and that's fine but the fact is that success has been limited and the goal of the team I thought was to win the Stanley Cup and not merely be better than Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, etc.

Treliving isn't going anywhere at the moment so these arguments are getting a little tiring as I'm getting tired of typing the same responses to the same counterpoints. I'm just hoping for the best here and hopefully this Eichel business runs its course so the team can move on one way or another as I feel the team is in a holding pattern. I would like to know what's the plan with Gaudreau and if there's possibly another non-Eichel move that can be done to improve the team as the Pacific is a weak division so the opportunity exists to salvage something from what's remaining of the core seeing it appears to be unchanged outside of the expansion draft move.

[Britflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How many teams have made more moves or more material changes than the Flames? Seems to me that they have made the types of changes that are pretty typical.
They shored up parts of their line up within the forward group and D.
One can debate if it will be enough, but it's not like the Flames did nothing.

How many teams needed to make the changes that Calgary needed to make? They have bought in one player of reasonable note on the right wing. They have not in any way replaced the loss of the Captain and number 1 defender. Right now the team has at best sat still, could be argued is worse. So far no sign of any contract with JG or MT. The GM has some rabbits to pull out of his hat or next season is going to be another hope to make the playoffs and that we don't lose JG for nothing which I am girding my loins for.

[Vinny01]

I was thinking Johnny signing for 8.5Mx7 years or $59.5M would pair nicely with his last extension which was $40.5M giving him $100M over 13 years with the Flames.

Get it done

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I think the clock is running out. Time to go to plan B in the process and rely on the fall back position to improve the team. There has to be at least an announcement of a Gaudreau extension by the opening of physicals. Otherwise, the next big announcement should be a change of leadership in management.

They have four weeks.

I'm pretty sure the owners are being kept well up to speed on what's going on, so I doubt the fire the GM at the end of the summer move is coming.

They are likely the ones that have to sign off on the Gaudreau extension, and are unlikely to fire themselves.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Britflamesfan

How many teams needed to make the changes that Calgary needed to make? They have bought in one player of reasonable note on the right wing. They have not in any way replaced the loss of the Captain and number 1 defender. Right now the team has at best sat still, could be argued is worse. So far no sign of any contract with JG or MT. The GM has some rabbits to pull out of his hat or next season is going to be another hope to make the playoffs and that we don't lose JG for nothing which I am girding my loins for.

I think the team is worse for sure on paper.

The expansion draft removed a 2/3 defenseman from their roster, and in a thin market that's not easy to replace.

But I'm also of the mind that the team was due a rebound anyway ... full year of Sutter, his style helping Markstrom bounce back, and likely rebounds from some forwards that had off years.

The team marks under Sutter certainly suggested they can carry the play and drive metrics, and win more than they lose if they can finish.

But on paper they're worse right now for sure.

But they're not going to camp with $4M in cap space, so they're not done.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If Montreal is considered to be the best Canadian team on the strength of last year’s fluky run, then Calgary is doing exactly the right thing to try and squeak in and hope for miracles in the POs.

No, MTL's 2nd-7th best seasons are still better than all the other CAD teams' 2nd-7th best seasons in that span.

If they lost to VGK this year, they're still probably 1st.

If they lost WPG, they'd have fallen to 2nd place.

If they lost to TOR, they're still 2nd, or maybe 3rd if TOR had run to the SCF.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think the team is worse for sure on paper.

The expansion draft removed a 2/3 defenseman from their roster, and in a thin market that's not easy to replace.

But I'm also of the mind that the team was due a rebound anyway ... full year of Sutter, his style helping Markstrom bounce back, and likely rebounds from some forwards that had off years.

The team marks under Sutter certainly suggested they can carry the play and drive metrics, and win more than they lose if they can finish.

But on paper they're worse right now for sure.

But they're not going to camp with $4M in cap space, so they're not done.

And they certainly have brought in players that should align to Sutter's way of playing. If one believes in Sutter as a coach, this is probably the most important element of the off-season.
But I would like to see more changes. I've been advocating for a change to the forward group for a long time. My specific move would have centered on moving Johnny but it's easy to say that without knowing what the returns were.
I don't like the top forward group much.
I'd love to see more change, but not just for the sake of it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

And they certainly have brought in players that should align to Sutter's way of playing. If one believes in Sutter as a coach, this is probably the most important element of the off-season.
But I would like to see more changes. I've been advocating for a change to the forward group for a long time. My specific move would have centered on moving Johnny but it's easy to say that without knowing what the returns were.
I don't like the top forward group much.
I'd love to see more change, but not just for the sake of it.

To me it comes down the lense.

If you look at the season as a whole you see down years for almost every key forward save for Mangiapane.

If you go by the last six weeks though you have a new top line, and then with Coleman and Monahan healthy some hope for depth.

I'm still all about wanting change too, for sure ... the Eichel stuff has really grown on me, but that new top line and some help to the second line at least has me thinking there's a path to a rebound regardless.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah the Flyers have made some questionable moves for sure ...

Ellis
Ristolanen
Atkinson

for

Patrick
Hague
1st
2nd
2nd
7th
Voracek
Gostisbehere

Certainly made better by the puzzling Voracek deal (why did Columbus do that?), but not sure they're actually better.

Definitely better on paper.

Atkinson = or > Voracek
Ellis >> Gostibehere

Hard to compare Patrick and Ristolainen, but Patrick was 9th on TOI for Flyers forwards last season and was pretty bad in that limited time.

The price paid for Risto might be questionable. But there’s no doubt that A) the Flyers will ice a better roster on opening night, and B) the team dynamic has been changed dramatically (a stated goal of Fletcher).

[blankall]

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but actually think the Flames have done far better than most to shore up their holes.

Last off-season: Acquired starting goalie and top pairing d-man.
This season/off-season: Acquired Coleman/Head coach.

The coaching situation was a mess, but not totally the GMs fault. It's also much easier to criticize in hindsight.

Hartley killed it. Won the Jack Adams. Fired the next season after not producing. Don't see what was wrong there. They gave Gulatzman a shot, also fired. Gulatzman

Bill Peters led the team to their second highest ever win total in 2018/19. Regardless of playoff performance, that was going to get Peters a bit of rope. Turns out he was also a piece of #!@$, and the Flames were forced to fire him mid-season. Ward took over as interim, the players seemed to love him.

The only true mistake was Gulatzman and possibly keeping Ward on too long.

I might be in the minority here, but I'm also pretty excited to see what Sutter can do with this team. After the adjustment period, the top line of Gaudreau/Linholm/Tkachuk looked incredible. The Flames, at least on paper, have great secondary scoring for once, with Backlund, Mangiapane, Coleman, and Monahan.

The only thing that will make me want to see the team blow it up is if Tkachuk and Gaudreau want out, and the Flames cannot acquire Eichel. If your two best players both have an extreme desire to return to their hometowns, that's also a bit outside of your control.

[sa226]

The Sutter affect is a real wildcard. When was the last time a Sutter team underacheived?

This group are perennial undetacheivers. So that hopefully will be reversed this season.

Many have said that the Bennett failure really set the franchise back and I agree. If Bennett was the top flight center he was drafted to be, many things would have fell in place.

As has been trending for a couple seasons, even the top faces of the rebuild (Gaudreau and Monahan) haven't really become what we thought they would after that surprise playoff mini run.

Now, unless there are major changes to the forward core, or Sutter can work some magic, the Flames are going to be playing perennial catch up trying to find the right mix of players hitting their peak.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Definitely better on paper.

Atkinson = or > Voracek
Ellis >> Gostibehere

Hard to compare Patrick and Ristolainen, but Patrick was 9th on TOI for Flyers forwards last season and was pretty bad in that limited time.

The price paid for Risto might be questionable. But there’s no doubt that A) the Flyers will ice a better roster on opening night, and B) the team dynamic has been changed dramatically (a stated goal of Fletcher).

are they really that much better considering all the picks they gave up? I think if the Flames gave away a bunch of high picks people wouldn't be too impressed that they were marginally better.

Trading 1sts should be reserved for Eichel, Hamilton, type deals...not decent players

[DJones]

I don't get the push for major changes. Like ya, if you can get Eichel. Sweet

But otherwise not sure what people are expecting. The team underachieved to ridiculous levels last year and our defense is a big question mark.

Making big changes when you don't even know what you have as a team is folish.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by blankall

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but actually think the Flames have done far better than most to shore up their holes.

Last off-season: Acquired starting goalie and top pairing d-man.
This season/off-season: Acquired Coleman/Head coach.

The coaching situation was a mess, but not totally the GMs fault. It's also much easier to criticize in hindsight.

Hartley killed it. Won the Jack Adams. Fired the next season after not producing. Don't see what was wrong there. They gave Gulatzman a shot, also fired. Gulatzman

Bill Peters led the team to their second highest ever win total in 2018/19. Regardless of playoff performance, that was going to get Peters a bit of rope. Turns out he was also a piece of #!@$, and the Flames were forced to fire him mid-season. Ward took over as interim, the players seemed to love him.

The only true mistake was Gulatzman and possibly keeping Ward on too long.

I might be in the minority here, but I'm also pretty excited to see what Sutter can do with this team. After the adjustment period, the top line of Gaudreau/Linholm/Tkachuk looked incredible. The Flames, at least on paper, have great secondary scoring for once, with Backlund, Mangiapane, Coleman, and Monahan.

The only thing that will make me want to see the team blow it up is if Tkachuk and Gaudreau want out, and the Flames cannot acquire Eichel. If your two best players both have an extreme desire to return to their hometowns, that's also a bit outside of your control.

I think the Flames will be better this year partially due to under achieving last year. You can make a case that the core/long term pieces the Flames got younger this off season while improving the prospect pool by more than the average team did.

Gio out Zadorov in is a 38 year old for a 26 year old. Not saying it was an improvement but at some point Gio was going to fall off a cliff and retire. We at least got rid of that risk for a dman that is a huge physical presence and could be improving still

Ryan our Coleman in. Ryan was a 4th liner but was a regular for this team for the last 3 years. He is 34 and Coleman is 29 and IMO a much better player.

Sure guys like Pitlick is 29 and more likely a regular and Bennett was in that role so we are a bit older there.

Guys like Lewis are on short term cheap deals and easily could be out in the press box any given night so I don't really care about his age.

There also as of right now is spots to be had for some young players. Mackey or Kylington could get a bump in games this year

Ruzicka and Phillips could land a spot.

Valimaki could get more ice time.

Our top 3 lines depending on who plays with who only have 2 30+ forwards in Backlund and Lucic (could be a 4th liner this year)

Our top 4 d has a 31 year old and 3 Dmen 24-26 years old

Goalies are 31 and 23 years old.

This team hasn't done a ton of big moves and of course most of us don't want to be stuck in the middle year after year but for now this team is overall a younger team, improved prospect pool and up draft picks at least in the first 2 rounds of next draft.

We are also in a unique spot of being plus cap space.

This could all fall apart if we don't figure out Tkachuk and Gaudreau though. But on paper so far it isn't as bad as most make it out, it's just not as big of changes as most wanted

[Stanley]

If we're sticking with this forward group, can we pls get another top 4 D-man at least?!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by sa226

The Sutter affect is a real wildcard. When was the last time a Sutter team underacheived?

This group are perennial undetacheivers. So that hopefully will be reversed this season.

Many have said that the Bennett failure really set the franchise back and I agree. If Bennett was the top flight center he was drafted to be, many things would have fell in place.

As has been trending for a couple seasons, even the top faces of the rebuild (Gaudreau and Monahan) haven't really become what we thought they would after that surprise playoff mini run.

Now, unless there are major changes to the forward core, or Sutter can work some magic, the Flames are going to be playing perennial catch up trying to find the right mix of players hitting their peak.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

I think Bennett had the potential to be a better player than he was in Calgary, but I can't see him leading a line in Calgary as the top line centre. If you actually watch how he gets most of his points in Florida, the vast majority either come from passing to Huberdeau and watching him go end to end or driving the net and receiving a phenomenal pass from Huberdeau.

I wish Bennett luck, and am really glad he's found chemistry with Huberdeau. Without Huberdeau, he's a 60 point max guy (probably more like 40-50 in Calgary). A definite loss and mishandling, but hardly a franchise crippling move. If anything, I'd argue that Coleman is the exact replacement for what Bennett would have brought, had Bennett been handled properly.

[VladtheImpaler]

I don't think Tanev was signed to be a top 2 dman, he has not been a top 2 dman in years (if ever), and you cannot assume that he will be the best defensive d-man in the league again. If he is, consider it a happy bonus, but you cannot count on that, given history/age.

As I see it, we are down a top pairing (with a footnote that Tanev might be a #2), particularly with respect to offense and running a PP.

[Moneyhands23]

2 weeks left in August and not even a sniff of real info on Johnny.
This is going to drag on and be a painful distraction for the team and especially us die hard fans. This GM has got to trade or re-sign Johnny before training camp. Just seems so crapy that other teams have taken care of so much business and we sit here wondering if 2 of our top 3 forwards are on their way out (Tkachuk).

Like it isn't painful enough to be a Flames fan

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I think the Flames will be better this year partially due to under achieving last year. You can make a case that the core/long term pieces the Flames got younger this off season while improving the prospect pool by more than the average team did.

Gio out Zadorov in is a 38 year old for a 26 year old. Not saying it was an improvement but at some point Gio was going to fall off a cliff and retire. We at least got rid of that risk for a dman that is a huge physical presence and could be improving still

Ryan our Coleman in. Ryan was a 4th liner but was a regular for this team for the last 3 years. He is 34 and Coleman is 29 and IMO a much better player.

Sure guys like Pitlick is 29 and more likely a regular and Bennett was in that role so we are a bit older there.

Guys like Lewis are on short term cheap deals and easily could be out in the press box any given night so I don't really care about his age.

There also as of right now is spots to be had for some young players. Mackey or Kylington could get a bump in games this year

Ruzicka and Phillips could land a spot.

Valimaki could get more ice time.

Our top 3 lines depending on who plays with who only have 2 30+ forwards in Backlund and Lucic (could be a 4th liner this year)

Our top 4 d has a 31 year old and 3 Dmen 24-26 years old

Goalies are 31 and 23 years old.

This team hasn't done a ton of big moves and of course most of us don't want to be stuck in the middle year after year but for now this team is overall a younger team, improved prospect pool and up draft picks at least in the first 2 rounds of next draft.

We are also in a unique spot of being plus cap space.

This could all fall apart if we don't figure out Tkachuk and Gaudreau though. But on paper so far it isn't as bad as most make it out, it's just not as big of changes as most wanted

The Flames, unlike several of their rivals, have not handicapped themselves long-term with awful contracts. Worse comes to worse, they can pull the plug and go full rebuild to stock up quickly.

I also think a lot of fans have become obsessed with the scorched Earth model, which unless you get lucky enough to draft Crosby, rarely works. Even if the Flames went that way, are they going to outsuck the Arizona's, Seattle's, Buffalos, etc.. of the league. Even if they do, with the new rules the odds of drafting #1 overall are far from a sure thing. The odds of the Flames coming out with a better duo than Gaudreau/Tkachuk, even from a full rebuild of 4 years or so are slim.

If you look at how scorched Earth teams are doing and who is winning the cup, it's pretty obvious that the scorched Earth rebuild isn't the way to win anymore. Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on their roster, but Stamkos played one game in 2019/20 and is far from their key forward anymore.

St. Louis had a #4 pick from 2008 on their team. They tanked in 2006 and ended up with Erik Johnson, who did not work out for them.

Meanwhile the recent perennial tankers, Buffalo, Edmonton, New Jersey, etc... seem totally lost.

IMO if you are tanking, the Colorado model makes a lot more sense. You push a winning culture. If it doesn't work, reload for 1-2 years, then rinse and repeat.