American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well yeah I'm sure there are people that predict almost every scenario. It's not like the Bush administration couldn't fathom that this was a possibility even back then, but you have to proceed based on the current situation and the fact that the Taliban was just not group that deserved to have peace negotiations. A lot of the early hand wringing was based on the "graveyard of empires" stuff though. History isn't guaranteed to repeat.



There are policy decisions that are slam dunk wrong right from the start, but I really don't think this was one of them.

What does "deserve" have to do with it? It's not like the U.S. has a history of choosing principle over pragmatism when it comes to doing business with brutally oppressive regimes.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Matata

If you didn't think the Afghan war was supposed to be a complete mess that allowed war profiteers to massively cash in and give control of Afghan oil and poppy fields to US corporate interests since the onset, you need to get a lot more cynical.

And a bang up job they are doing of it too. Pretty great return on capital spending $1 Trillion on a war to capture that daily production of......no barrels per day....

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

What does "deserve" have to do with it? It's not like the U.S. has a history of choosing principle over pragmatism when it comes to doing business with brutally oppressive regimes.

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that the Taliban weren't in any position to receive peace talks, either militarily or ethically. There's zero chance any policy makers would have felt that was the right move in the early 2000's.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Does Germany count?

I think because these were wars of equal powers rather than a colonial powers that it’s different. Though if you count Germany it only worked half the time and the time it failed it led to mass genocide. Essentially it took 80 years or so to complete.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No because Japan isnt a democracy, they vote for one party, always have always will, the LDP.
Japan is a Democracy in the same way China or Russia is, they hold elections of a sort but the outcome is in no way in doubt

The LDP only received 1/3 of the vote in the last election. That this led to a majority government speaks to the existence of a plethora of other parties, not anything like the Chinese or Russian systems.

It’s much closer to the Liberal domination of Canadian national politics for most of the last century.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by driveway

The LDP only received 1/3 of the vote in the last election. That this led to a majority government speaks to the existence of a plethora of other parties, not anything like the Chinese or Russian systems.

It’s much closer to the Liberal domination of Canadian national politics for most of the last century.

Only if the liberals had been in power since the second world war without a break but for 3 or 4 years at most, the Japanese were told they had to vote and they voted for the one party year in and year out, it could be a democracy but the Japanese people just dont really think like that, they vote as if the LDP was their Shogun, without question or resentment

[GGG]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Only if the liberals had been in power since the second world war without a break but for 3 or 4 years at most, the Japanese were told they had to vote and they voted for the one party year in and year out, it could be a democracy but the Japanese people just dont really think like that, they vote as if the LDP was their Shogun, without question or resentment

So like Alberta

[driveway]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Only if the liberals had been in power since the second world war without a break but for 3 or 4 years at most, the Japanese were told they had to vote and they voted for the one party year in and year out, it could be a democracy but the Japanese people just dont really think like that, they vote as if the LDP was their Shogun, without question or resentment

Wow this post is racist, good lord.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by driveway

Wow this post is racist, good lord.

"Japanese people don't think like that" was my favourite part.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by nik-

"Japanese people don't think like that" was my favourite part.

Pretty uncharitable interpretation, especially since you missed the word ‘the’. The way I read it, he’s referring to “the Japanese people” in the same way one might refer to “the American people”; he’s speaking about the electorate.

He can be wrong about the thoughts/motivations of the electorate without being slagged off as a horrible racist.

[driveway]

It’s more valuable to speak of actions as racist, not people. That POST was a racist post. afc Wimbledon may or may not have intended it as such, and may or may not knowingly hold white supremicist beliefs. However, the words they wrote clearly propagate white supremacy: the Japanese people are incapable of having true democracy, seemingly as a result of being Japanese, whereas Canada or the US are capable of being democracies as the population is less Japanese.

afc Wimbledon’s own beliefs about racial equity, indeed their own ethnicity doesn’t impact whether or not the post itself is racist. They could be an ethnically Japanese scholar of Japanese political science and it would still be a racist post.

[CETokyo]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No because Japan isnt a democracy, they vote for one party, always have always will, the LDP.
Japan is a Democracy in the same way China or Russia is, they hold elections of a sort but the outcome is in no way in doubt

Yes, Japan is not a democracy.
Very low voter turnout and a party bent on ultimately removing the Constitution

The LDP/Nippon Kaigi are Authoritarian.
The LDP make up most of the splinter parties, factions and many opposition members are former LDP.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by driveway

It’s more valuable to speak of actions as racist, not people. That POST was a racist post. afc Wimbledon may or may not have intended it as such, and may or may not knowingly hold white supremicist beliefs. However, the words they wrote clearly propagate white supremacy: the Japanese people are incapable of having true democracy, seemingly as a result of being Japanese, whereas Canada or the US are capable of being democracies as the population is less Japanese.

afc Wimbledon’s own beliefs about racial equity, indeed their own ethnicity doesn’t impact whether or not the post itself is racist. They could be an ethnically Japanese scholar of Japanese political science and it would still be a racist post.

You know what reek's of white supremacy, the absolute belief that our democracy is the highest and only state mankind should live by and therefore the inference that any people or race wouldn't want our democracy is clearly based on them being inferior and incapable of having democracy because everyone wants our democracy right??

my post has sod all to do with whether I though the Japanese people were capable of democracy, I have no doubt they are, my post was about the fact that Japan had constitutional democracy forced on it by the dropping of a couple of A Bombs and while the good people of Japan did what we told them to do and voted they clearly werent particularly interested in a democratic system, they voted for a one party state run by a conservative traditionalist party that didnt look much different than the Meiji restoration that preceeded the war and have been voting for that one party pretty much without interruption since we told them they had to waste a day out of their busy schedule once every 4 or 5 years to elect the same Government every single time.

[Enoch Root]

I don't know, maybe I am naive, but I feel that it is possible to make an observation about politics in Japan without that making the observer guilty of white supremacy.

JC.

[oldschoolcalgary]

interesting thoughts on Afghanistan from a US soldier who did two tours.

I remember how every year the US would have to decide how to deal with the opium fields. There were a few options. You could leave the fields alone, and then the Taliban would shake the farmers down and use the money to buy weapons. Or, you could carpet bomb the fields, and then the farmers would join the Taliban for reasons that, to me, seem obvious.

The third option, and the one we went for while I was there, was to give the farmers fertilizer as an incentive to grow wheat instead of opium poppy. The farmers then sold the fertilizer to the Taliban, who used it to make explosives for IEDs that could destroy a million dollar MRAP and maim everyone inside.

https://laurajedeed.medium.com/afgha...g-9e3f099b00e5

Its called the Graveyard of Empires for a reason...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CETokyo

Yes, Japan is not a democracy.
Very low voter turnout and a party bent on ultimately removing the Constitution

The LDP/Nippon Kaigi are Authoritarian.
The LDP make up most of the splinter parties, factions and many opposition members are former LDP.

I did not know this. That's extremely enlightening. Thanks for that information.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

interesting thoughts on Afghanistan from a US soldier who did two tours.



https://laurajedeed.medium.com/afgha...g-9e3f099b00e5

Its called the Graveyard of Empires for a reason...

You can't change 13th century thinking without first bringing the people to a 21st century educational standard.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You can't change 13th century thinking without first bringing the people to a 21st century educational standard.

I don't disagree... but like the author noted, no one, without skin in the game there, is going to provide that level of resources and support for the length of time it would require to make that change.

After this, I would expect that level of reticence from western nations to enter into Afghanistan long term to be be a non-starter politically

[8 Ball]

afc is a white supremacist lol. People realize that calling someone racist when they are not is extremely insulting right?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You can't change 13th century thinking without first bringing the people to a 21st century educational standard.

So what do you do? Salt the earth and bring the farmers here to grow marijuana?