Let's Talk About Minimum Wage, Class Warfare, Wage Gaps, etc.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

I am saying no such thing. My statement is unambiguous. It underpins my claim that since employees have agency a minimum wage is inappropriate. It limits their agency. It's limiting their agency because we "know what's good for them better than they do."

So a wage they can’t afford to live on is or can be better for them than a lower wage they can’t afford to live on?

That’s your position?

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So a wage they can’t afford to live on is or can be better for them than a lower wage they can’t afford to live on?

That’s your position?

I have no idea. I wouldn't presume to decide for people what they must consider better or not better for themselves.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Two consenting adults should be able to do what they want, assuming they aren't doing physical harm to anyone else. That includes determining how they want to exchange labour for money.

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Not in any way that is significant.

A minimum wage is telling two parties (individuals or groups), that they are not allowed to do something to which they both consent, and which is doing no physical harm to anyone else.

Except the employer isn't always hiring the most qualified guy for the job . They are looking for the cheapest option.

Just anecdotal I was offered a job , stated I was the best candidate and just having me turn out 45% repairs and 35% sales more would be great benifiet to them untill wages came up. They asked me my wage interat I said $20( previously was making $25) they contered with 15. They ended up hiring a high school kid that was promptly fired 3 weeks later. I work in an industry that's extremely tight nit and extremely hard to find as trained as much as I am. I get the call 2 days after they fire the kid but now they offer 15.75. Thanks but no thanks. I was already 8n talk to 2 other shops with the same Financials as them for over my asking..

The long and the hard of it is minimum wage just opens up for abuse and wage slavery . Having a minimum wage that reflects living wage isn't terrible. A living wage is determined by average cost to rent( not home ownership),single person , Food, and basic bills. Here that's 18 dollars an hour. No ones asking minimum to be able to support you ,a wife and 4 kids with a mortgage. A start would be a single person with a 1 bedroom/ Bach apartment that can afford food/ utilities and transportation to get to work which is currently here at least 18 dollars an hour . That's what is defined as a living wage. Al living wage doesn't account for extras or savings.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Two consenting adults should be able to do what they want, assuming they aren't doing physical harm to anyone else. That includes determining how they want to exchange labour for money.

Then why can't I buy xtasy or shrooms legally? It only hurts me.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

That's a false dichotomy.

No it's not. I was homeless at the age of 14to 16 I had no other choice than to except a 8 dollar min job at the time. I worked 45 to 65 hours a week and that barley covered my rent I eventually found. It was literally take the first offer I could find

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Then why can't I buy xtasy or shrooms legally? It only hurts me.

Because there are people with the same reasoning skills regarding minimum wage as there are regarding shrooms. Both come down to someone telling you what is best for you.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

An employer only has a "power imbalance" (what a silly term) until such time as they are paying less than an employee will accept.

As long as there is another employer willing to pay the same as, or better than, the existing employer, then there is no "power imbalance".

There obviously is a power imbalance. Most businesses are not co-ops.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Because there are people with the same reasoning skills regarding minimum wage as there are regarding shrooms. Both come down to someone telling you what is best for you.

So your pro drug and prostitution? Pro assisted suicide ?
Wage slavery
I'm just trying to get where the line is between 2 consenting adults. It's just not very clear what you mean when you keep saying the same lines. In the covid forums it seems the opposite. I'm just trying to get a Guage of what you mean .

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

No it's not. I was homeless at the age of 14to 16 I had no other choice than to except a 8 dollar min job at the time. I worked 45 to 65 hours a week and that barley covered my rent I eventually found. It was literally take the first offer I could find

I think this is a useful example.

You weren't able to get (at least easily) a job that would pay you $10 per hour, otherwise you would have done that job. But employers were willing to hire you for $8 per hour.

Now imagine the minimum wage was set at $10 per hour. Perhaps the $8/hr employers would have instead hired you for $10/hr. Or perhaps they would have liked to hire you for $8 but were unwilling to hire you for $10. Would you have preferred no job over a job that was $8/hr? Now imagine you had said to that employer that you were willing to work for $8/hr rather than have no job, but they said "sorry that's illegal, no job for you."

Would it have made sense to you at the time for the gov't to create a rule where that choice was no longer yours? Would it have made sense to you that it was hard to find a job because there were fewer jobs available - that is any job that made sense at $8 but not at $10 did not exist?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

I'm arguing that an employer can't take away someone's ability to earn a living.

Actually not true. An employer can terminate a employee for any stupid reason as long as the pay in leui. An employer can fire any one at anytime with out reason if they want . Legally as long as they pay in leui they have done nothing wrong. Employers don't legally have to give a reason if they pay in lieu. So yes they can definitely take away a employees ability to earn and on top of that future Employers will see your were fired and hurt your chances at further employment.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

So your pro drug and prostitution? Pro assisted suicide ?
Wage slavery
I'm just trying to get where the line is between 2 consenting adults. It's just not very clear what you mean when you keep saying the same lines. In the covid forums it seems the opposite. I'm just trying to get a Guage of what you mean .

Things the government should allow people to decide for themselves (not a complete list):

- the sex of the people they marry and have kids with
- whether or not they put drugs into their own body (I'm not pro drugs, but I am pro people doing what they want with their body)
- abortion
- consensual kinky #### in the bedroom
- prostitution (two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want).
- what you want to charge per hour for your labour

It's very difficult to make any sense by agreeing with the first five, and then denying the sixth.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Things the government should allow people to decide for themselves (not a complete list):

- the sex of the people they marry and have kids with
- whether or not they put drugs into their own body (I'm not pro drugs, but I am pro people doing what they want with their body)
- abortion
- consensual kinky #### in the bedroom
- prostitution (two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want).
- what you want to charge per hour for your labour

It's very difficult to make any sense by agreeing with the first five, and then denying the sixth.

I won't dispute that the current governments approach is probably wrong...however...let's not pretend that this is consent. Not only is there a significant power dynamic in place, but often addiction and/or mental health make this far less than consensual in the traditional sense.

[Deegee]

What the hell happened to this thread?

[PeteMoss]

Some of the UBI disconnect in this thread is happening I suspect there are two different ideas of when you implement an UBI

1) Implement now as a replacement for other social programs
2) A future idea as we become more technically advanced and automate a bunch of jobs so you end up with a bunch of people unable to work because demand > supply

(2) is one of those self-driving car problems where people are way too optimistic when it will happen, but that would be when I would expect a serious discussion about a UBI implementation.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I won't dispute that the current governments approach is probably wrong...however...let's not pretend that this is consent. Not only is there a significant power dynamic in place, but often addiction and/or mental health make this far less than consensual in the traditional sense.

Well there CAN be coercion. But it's not pre-requisite for the sex trade for coercion to be present. Ultimately, "her body, her choice." As I said above, people often cherry pick items from the list above, even though it is not logical to do so.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Deegee

What the hell happened to this thread?

I think BoLevi is the new Moon. He shows up and makes ridiculously obtuse arguments, thread derailment ensues.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think BoLevi is the new Moon. He shows up and makes ridiculously obtuse arguments, thread derailment ensues.

He is the embodiment of why we should be allowed to pay people less than $15 per hour.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Some of the UBI disconnect in this thread is happening I suspect there are two different ideas of when you implement an UBI

1) Implement now as a replacement for other social programs
2) A future idea as we become more technically advanced and automate a bunch of jobs so you end up with a bunch of people unable to work because demand > supply

(2) is one of those self-driving car problems where people are way too optimistic when it will happen, but that would be when I would expect a serious discussion about a UBI implementation.

So UBI discussion is preparation for the date when we have flying robots - that don't require their own human maintenance - to do all the labour in society and people can't find jobs?

Seems pressing.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by blankall

So UBI discussion is preparation for the date when we have flying robots - that don't require their own human maintenance - to do all the labour in society and people can't find jobs?

Seems pressing.

People conveniently forget that automation causes prices to fall. Automation makes things cheaper, which is the same as saying society as a whole gets richer.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

People conveniently forget that automation causes prices to fall. Automation makes things cheaper, which is the same as saying society as a whole gets richer.

Citation needed