Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Vinny01]

This is the move I thought made most sense when the Flames season ended but I was convinced it wasn’t happening. I am back in thinking this is a legit possibility and I believe it is the right move.

If Tkachuk is committed to the organization then I would try and build a purely futures based offer or one where a cap hit like Monahan or Backlund is sent out in a separate trade to make the cap work. Ideally Johnny and Chucky sign extensions this summer and you build your team around Eichel, Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, Mangiapane up front.

If the whispers are true and Tkachuk wants out then this is a deal that makes a ton of sense for the Flames. There is injury risk with Eichel but there is potential for one of the best players in the league in his prime to be a Flame. Tkachuk then becomes the Flames main trade chip who I believe can acquire the futures the Flames need to get them to close the deal.

Getting Eichel and signing Gaudreau seems like the absolute best path if this team refuses to go down the rebuild path.

[djsFlames]

Guarantee that if we maintain this current crop with minor tweaks, we will not be bad enough to draft first in either of the Wright or Bedard drafts. That's not in the cards for us.

Making this deal might be though.

[the-rasta-masta]

I haven't really chimed in on any potential Eichel deal yet. But I've watched a ton of Eichel the last few years and I'd rank him in the top 5 centerman in the league no questions asked.

Because of his health and the relationship with the Sabres, you are going to get a player of his caliber for less than you would normally. In fact, the Sabres know this and I'm sure are less than pleased with the situation, I'd have to believe they would rather keep Eichel than trade him.

Players of his caliber just aren't on the market very often. I still believe that the Flames are a better team than they were last year, and so I'd be willing to take the risk to get a player of Eichels ilk, even at the 4 futures price the Sabres are quoting. I think it allows us a window of 5 years to fine-tune a contender. Obviously I'm assuming Johnny is re-signing otherwise no sense in Eichel.

I like Monahan's potential to rebound. I like the chances of Dube and Mangiapane to continue to elevate their game into true top 6 players next season. And I think very highly of Pelletier, Zary and Coronato enough to think they will be valuable ELC players in the re-opening of Calgary's window through an Eichel trade.

I'd go:

Tkachuk
Valimaki
2022 First

And if the Lottery protection on the 1st is a dealbreaker, than I likely give in and don't worry about it because I feel super confident the Flames easily the playoffs next season with the following roster and Sutter coaching.

Gaudreau-Eichel-Lindholm
Dube-Monahan-Mangiapane
Pelletier-Backlund-Coleman
Lucic-Gawdin-Pitlick

Hanifin-Tanev
Andersson- UFA
Mackey-Stone
Kylington

Markstrom
UFA

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Guarantee that if we maintain this current crop with minor tweaks, we will not be bad enough to draft first in either of the Wright or Bedard drafts. That's not in the cards for us.

Making this deal might be though.

It's not just about Wright. 2022 is looking to threaten 2003.

[bluejays]

I wish some people wouldn't speak in hyperbole and exaggerations. The Eichel talk really boils down to expecting a slight discount based on the risk you'd be taking on. That's a fact. If Buffalo isn't wavering based on their asking price relative to his health, then it's asking for too much for the inherent risk you'd be taking on.


With the Flames depth being shallow, with their bottom two lines being filled with borderline AHLers, defensive depth being shallow, and star power on the team being at it's lowest, what does giving up a star player (one of MK, JG, SM), a 1st round pick, and a prospect (one of Dube or Zary). So you get your star player in Eichel, but you give up potential middle of the lineup future guys in Dube or Zary, and you can't draft any high potential talent for a year. Seems like the Flames at best would be in the same position they're in right now, with less light at the end of the tunnel by giving up prospects and draft picks. I don't like it from that perspective. I'm not big on Zary as a high calibre prospect, but that full combination of what you give up doesn't bode well for the Flames' future. It's one thing to be mediocre, but to be mediocre and not have high picks or prospects around just means endless mediocrity.


I'm sure the Flames are in on him. I'm not opposed to bringing in the guy, but at the cost of what it will likely cost, the Flames should be out as the team sorely needs some draft choices to pan out before going for it.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by fleury

I wish some people wouldn't speak in hyperbole and exaggerations. The Eichel talk really boils down to expecting a slight discount based on the risk you'd be taking on. That's a fact. If Buffalo isn't wavering based on their asking price relative to his health, then it's asking for too much for the inherent risk you'd be taking on.


With the Flames depth being shallow, with their bottom two lines being filled with borderline AHLers, defensive depth being shallow, and star power on the team being at it's lowest, what does giving up a star player (one of MK, JG, SM), a 1st round pick, and a prospect (one of Dube or Zary). So you get your star player in Eichel, but you give up potential middle of the lineup future guys in Dube or Zary, and you can't draft any high potential talent for a year. Seems like the Flames at best would be in the same position they're in right now, with less light at the end of the tunnel by giving up prospects and draft picks. I don't like it from that perspective. I'm not big on Zary as a high calibre prospect, but that full combination of what you give up doesn't bode well for the Flames' future. It's one thing to be mediocre, but to be mediocre and not have high picks or prospects around just means endless mediocrity.


I'm sure the Flames are in on him. I'm not opposed to bringing in the guy, but at the cost of what it will likely cost, the Flames should be out as the team sorely needs some draft choices to pan out before going for it.

That’s why I think going after Landeskog might make more sense. You lose less assets. Someone would have to leave to make the $$ work. But at least you’d get something back for that player. It wouldn’t be as punitive.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ Right?!? So many are expecting Eichel to step right in if he's acquired. He's gone for like 6 months to a year. You get Eichel you best be ready to wait a while.

Right, but then we have Eichel for at four more years at presumably 100%.

Ask the Brooklyn Nets if that’s worth it

[dino7c]

Landeskog can pick any team he wants though...how likely is getting the top UFA

[djsFlames]

I'd fully expect there to be conditions on picks that hinge on the number of games Eichel plays.

Would be downright silly not to include those. Would mitigate some risk as far as next season and the subsequent draft goes.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ Right?!? So many are expecting Eichel to step right in if he's acquired. He's gone for like 6 months to a year. You get Eichel you best be ready to wait a while.

If a team has legit cup aspirations, they can make the playoffs without their best player by being solid and deep. And take full advantage of the LTIR savings in doing so. Kucherov and the Lightning the obvious example.

And if you miss the playoffs, I would just hope any 2022 picks were top 5 protected.

Imagine adding Eichel AND Wright.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Landeskog can pick any team he wants though...how likely is getting the top UFA

High after we get Eichel and ship out Backlund!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Landeskog can pick any team he wants though...how likely is getting the top UFA

Landeskog is going to be able to pick his new team as even if the Flames put in a big contract offer it's likely the Kraken can bid higher or the Avs are just waiting to put in a matching offer to which he remains. And if it's about winning as much as money then the Flames and Kraken are likely off his list as the Blues and maybe the Islanders can offer him a better chance at winning. He's going to have so many options that I just don't see how Calgary doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

[howard_the_duck]

Join us, Gabriel! We have a broken first line center, zero future prospects, and a trade depleted roster to acquire said center. Welcome aboard!

[bluejays]

Guys are comparing hockey to basketball and Durant's situation now? Lord. Hockey involves requiring much more depth, while basketball is star driven. Not a good comparison.

Part of what the good teams do early on is have a development system to continually pump out talent. Say what we want about Tampa but they've excelled in it the past few years. The Flames have been pretty poor lately. Gotta keep those picks and develop them for the franchise to be a contender year in and out. Eichel by virtue of being brought in at the expense of so much when the team is shallow on star power and depth is such a terrible move.

[browntrout]

I got no problem selling the farm to get him, it's his health that is a big concern. If the guy was healthy he would have been dealt already. I would trade prospects and roster players to get him. Draft lottery picks are off the table, no guarantee the guy will even play this year and I know some want a rebuild, but how bad would that be to actually trade for the guy, miss the playoffs and then win a draft lottery only to see it go to another team, the GM would be fired for such a bone headed move. I think alot of GM's are in the same boat, hence why you have not seen him traded

[tkflames]

Ritchie 3 x 2.5M
P. Suter 4 x 3.5M
McCabe 3 x 3M
Halal: 1 x 2.5M

Slap a C on Lucic or Backlund and let the team perform under Sutter. If they perform, you can buy big time at the deadline. If they suck...you can sell while retaining to get max value.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by fleury

Part of what the good teams do early on is have a development system to continually pump out talent. Say what we want about Tampa but they've excelled in it the past few years. The Flames have been pretty poor lately.

Tampa's drafting is absolutely a huge part of their success. Whether it's Kucherov (2011 58th OA), Vasilevsky (2012 19th OA), Point (2014 79th OA), these are all guys who were available when Calgary picked the likes of Tyler Wotherspoon (57th OA), Jankowski (14th OA traded for 21st OA), Smith/Hickey (let's not even go there).

No one would disagree with you there, and it does extend to a lot of Tampa's rosters whether it's Cirelli, Cernak, Palat, Johnson, or Gourde.

However -

Tampa also had the benefit of 2nd overall pick Viktor Hedman, 1st overall pick Steven Stamkos (I know he didn't play in the bubble playoffs, but he's still a massive part of their team's success), and trading 3rd overall pick Jonathan Drouin for Mikhael Sergachev at just the right time.

The kind of talent associated with high draft picks doesn't grow on trees, and Jack Eichel is the kind of talent associated with a high draft pick. In fact he's a lot closer to Hedman-tier than anyone else in terms of "unobtanium".

Despite Calgary's past failures in some drafts, we're not a horrible drafting/development team. We do pump out some pretty good NHLers on a respectably regular basis - whether it was guys like Gio/Brodie/Gaudreau/Mangiapane who belong up the roster or guys like Dube/Backlund/Andersson/Ferland who still can contribute to a good team in the middle of the roster or guys like Jankowski/Kulak/Hathaway who can certainly find a nice role at the bottom of the roster of good teams.

I don't think our pipeline is that empty even if we do give up some assets or futures for Eichel. Guys like Phillips, Kylington and Ruzicka can probably contribute a lot more than they've been allowed to in the past. Guys like Pellettier, Coronato and Zary can probably take a roster spot. Some wildcard like Pospisil is certainly able to force his way onto the roster when we least expected it.

But absolutely none of those guys will be a Jack Eichel. Not because of the Flames' failure to draft, but because Jack Eichels simply do not come along late in the draft.

You can fill out a roster around a guy like Eichel.
You can't fill a roster hole where a guy like Eichel would be.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

On the first point, you’re right that you’ve never said you watched every game, but you’ve always “watched the games.” Whether it’s as many as you can, or whenever you get the chance, or “most” of them, etc. How many Buffalo games have you watched? This is not a weird “attempt to dodge discredit” thing, relax. How many Buffalo games have you watched and which one should I watch to see it the way you do? Name a game.

It probably isn't fair to poach games from this past season, so just go back to the close of the previous one. There were a couple games I remember clearly because I went to the one in Glendale on Leap Year day and watched the previous night's game against Vegas. So I watched one on TV and the other live. Watch these games and tell me what you think about Eichel's decision making with the puck and whether he does anything to the advantage of his linemates. Then look at his effort to play defense, especially when he makes a turn over of his man breaks loose. I recall a few instances where he gave up for easy scoring opportunities and a couple of goals against. Again, really poor decision making and his effort wasn't there when he didn't have the puck, especially in the defensive zone. Disinterested is the way I remembered it, especially the game in Phoenix where the Coyote's #9 was vastly superior to the Sabres #9. There is no doubt that Eichel has speed and skill at elite levels, but his brain, his discipline, and his GAF are no where close to where they need to be. So please, view those and give me your impressions.

On the second, the trade proposals, which you said would work for both teams, and something you advocated over giving up prospects, were pulled from the thread about Eichel being denied his preferred neck surgery. Don’t make it out like this stuff just dawned on you once you realised he needed surgery and wanted an experimental one. My question is one of curiosity: what changed since May 12?

The post in question is from 02/23/2021. Again, long before Eichel's injury was disclosed. And even then I was saying the Flames need to think long and hard over the move.

In fact, tranny leaned into that and said the Flames cannot afford to lose Monahan and Lindholm together, which I agreed with in my very next post on the very topic.

I agree. The price is too high IMO, but that is what it is going to take to get Eichel or a similar level player. The cost is going to hurt to the point that the team may not want to pursue the trade. I think we have the pieces to make the deal, I just don't think we should make the deal based on the cost. I know people are going to dream up some stupid trade proposals where we send 10 draft picks and five prospects, but you have to ask what the Sabres are going to accept. Lottery tickets isn't getting this done. Teams are going to have to cough up proven quantities and a lot of them. I see this as the model for a deal and what Calgary would have to cough up to get Eichel. If I were GM I wouldn't do it.

I agree the cost is high for a player of the stature under discussion, but I don't think the Flames should do it. Especially as things have evolved, and especially since his injury has been disclosed.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Tampa's drafting is absolutely a huge part of their success. Whether it's Kucherov (2011 58th OA), Vasilevsky (2012 19th OA), Point (2014 79th OA), these are all guys who were available when Calgary picked the likes of Tyler Wotherspoon (57th OA), Jankowski (14th OA traded for 21st OA), Smith/Hickey (let's not even go there).

No one would disagree with you there, and it does extend to a lot of Tampa's rosters whether it's Cirelli, Cernak, Palat, Johnson, or Gourde.

However -

Tampa also had the benefit of 2nd overall pick Viktor Hedman, 1st overall pick Steven Stamkos (I know he didn't play in the bubble playoffs, but he's still a massive part of their team's success), and trading 3rd overall pick Jonathan Drouin for Mikhael Sergachev at just the right time.

The kind of talent associated with high draft picks doesn't grow on trees, and Jack Eichel is the kind of talent associated with a high draft pick. In fact he's a lot closer to Hedman-tier than anyone else in terms of "unobtanium".

Despite Calgary's past failures in some drafts, we're not a horrible drafting/development team. We do pump out some pretty good NHLers on a respectably regular basis - whether it was guys like Gio/Brodie/Gaudreau/Mangiapane who belong up the roster or guys like Dube/Backlund/Andersson/Ferland who still can contribute to a good team in the middle of the roster or guys like Jankowski/Kulak/Hathaway who can certainly find a nice role at the bottom of the roster of good teams.

I don't think our pipeline is that empty even if we do give up some assets or futures for Eichel. Guys like Phillips, Kylington and Ruzicka can probably contribute a lot more than they've been allowed to in the past. Guys like Pellettier, Coronato and Zary can probably take a roster spot. Some wildcard like Pospisil is certainly able to force his way onto the roster when we least expected it.

But absolutely none of those guys will be a Jack Eichel. Not because of the Flames' failure to draft, but because Jack Eichels simply do not come along late in the draft.

You can fill out a roster around a guy like Eichel.
You can't fill a roster hole where a guy like Eichel would be.

Completely agree. Where I don't fully agree is the package it'd cost. Again, I'm not big on any of the Flames prospects not in today's lineup, but the complete package including giving up next years' first rounder is a deal breaker. Some team will be willing to do it though. On the Flames, where they have no higher talented depth, and they don't have that star, means they have to go through this by drafting very well, developing talent, then when they amass that talent where it's bleeding, they can go the all in route by getting a guy like Eichel. Giving up high future picks on a team that lacks any depth, in addition to the little draft collateral they have, is just not a good fit. When you're oozing draft talent, and you can survive not picking in the first round, sure. Ottawa may actually be in that position this year. But the Flames have to hold on to their 1st to eek out some high end talent by scouting and secondly developing. Trying to fast track is a terrible idea because there aren't any fast tracking routes.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by fleury

Completely agree. Where I don't fully agree is the package it'd cost.

There are really only two real options (outside of the treadmill)

Option A) Tank back to back years for Wright/Bedard.

The cost: Miserable seasons with high risk of not getting the picks you want, and becoming an unattractive FA destination

Option B) Acquire Eichel, try to build around him on the fly. You'll be in a futures deficit, but can probably make it work, maybe after a year or two. Maybe you'll never be a Tampa-tier contender, but you could definitely make some deep playoff runs, and maybe, after a long time, sort of pull off what Washington did in 2018. A slow buildup to a championship team.

The cost: some immediate futures

The treadmill option is still far worse than either of these options. Whether it's trading 2nds for Curtis Lazars or drafting middle six wingers with our first rounders, you're not going anywhere if you stick to this plan. Lindholm isn't a 1C. Monahan isn't a 1C.