Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I see two outcomes of this trade happening
1. The Flames acquire a young #1 elite centre which instantly upgrades the team
2. The Flames acquire a guy who is injured and can't regain form in which case the Flames are dragged kicking in screaming into a proper rebuild.

Boom or bust. People want out of the soft and gooey middle - one way or the other this does that I think.

But without their 2022 1st

Absolutely no way I include the 1st for a guy that likely misses a good chunk of the season

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just imagine getting a damaged Eichel, paying his $10 million per year for the next 5 years, and the cost ends up being Wright or Bedard, plus Tkachuk and Zary.

That would be devastating for this franchise.

thank you

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by AC

It's a risk no doubt.

The flipside is you could acquire an elite #1C that are almost impossible to acquire other than by draft #1 or #2.

Yep for sure. It's a risk acquiring him and that's why I don't think it's crazy for any team that acquires him to ask for lottery protection on any 1st rounders they may include in the package.

Especially with Wright/Michkov/Bedard being in those next two drafts.

[bluejays]

I think what we all don't recognize is the high probability of there being multiple teams being desperate to land a big fish, at almost any cost. I can't see the Flames winning the stakes without overpaying and hurting their future. And any package they do produce, there is a high possibility that a desperate GM or owner would want in. I believe it was Friedman who said Buffalo could keep Eichel for this season if they don't get a deal they like. I believe it. If you wait it out long enough, perhaps Eichel does the normal surgery, and the field opens up much more for him with a bigger return possible. Plus Buffalo can just tank and they get a great pick this draft. Money aside, Buffalo isn't in a must trade mode with him right now.

[dino7c]

The good deals.often happen after the bad ones... Vancouver and Edmonton can make the bad ones. Oilers bent over backwards to get Chicago the player they wanted. Chicago the conference rival that knocked them out last season.

Vancouver had a division rival with no first rounder and a contract they were dying to move and gave them both.

I'll take the blue balls for now thanks

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The good deals.often happen after the bad ones... Vancouver and Edmonton can make the bad ones. Oilers bent over backwards to get Chicago the player they wanted. Chicago the conference rival that knocked them out last season.

Vancouver had a division rival with no first rounder and a contract they were dying to move and gave them both.

I'll take the blue balls for now thanks

Yeah, listening to 31 Thoughts it certainly sounds like Vancouver's trade is one made out of desperation by Benning. They "need" to be better this year.

Edmonton's trade was just Holland fully exposing himself as an "old" hockey mind. He can't build a team (two 2nds for 9 games of Athanasiou?). His entire run as Oilers GM has been brutal. This summer was supposed to be the first real time he was "free" of his predecessor's stupidity...and well, look at what he did.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yep for sure. It's a risk acquiring him and that's why I don't think it's crazy for any team that acquires him to ask for lottery protection on any 1st rounders they may include in the package.

Especially with Wright/Michkov/Bedard being in those next two drafts.

If you're worried about having to lottery protect your pick, you shouldn't be trading it. If Tree is worried about that, then he should already be rebuilding.

I would be happy to see the Flames go all-in on Eichel and this team. '22 1st and '23 1st (both unprotected) as the main pieces going to Buffalo? Absolutely, I'm in. Follow that deal up by extending Johnny, and lock and load. You've got yourself set for the next 2-4 years to compete - and if you don't win it all, you re-asses and potentially burn it down then.

To Buffalo: '22 1st, '23 1st, '22 2nd, '22 2nd
To Calgary: Jack Eichel

Boom. There's your big play. No protection on any of the picks. The next two years almost fully leveraged in one trade for an elite top-10 centre that then allows the rest of the roster to be slotted nicely, while also giving us enough centre depth to overcome injuries down the middle should they show up.

Mangiapane - Eichel - Tkachuk --> Power line
Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm --> Offensive line
Dube - Backlund - Pitlick --> Shutdown line
Lucic - Ruzicka - Cheap UFA Forward --> Smash 'em line
Ritchie

Hanifin - Tanev --> Heavy lifters
Valimaki - Andersson --> Lots of pressure on the youngsters
Edler (1 year at a time) - Kylington --> Stability and speed
Mackey

Markstrom --> goalie supreme
Raanta --> surprisingly good goalie no one seems to be talking about that could be had for cheap this summer

All of that being tied together by Darryl Sutter.

Cap becomes perhaps a bit difficult to manage in '22/'23 (unless Lucic goes to LTIRetirement), but it's still manageable. We'd also still have Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Heineman, Phillips, Gawdin all knocking on the door for spots as we move forward if we need to trade off someone like Backlund for cap reasons.

Alternatively? If you can't acquire Eichel? Burn it down now, starting with trading Johnny prior to his NTC kicking in. We have a lot of pieces to trade for a giddy fortune over the next 24 months in Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Tanev, Hanifin, Lindholm, and Andersson.

I think the reason why we haven't seen any notable change as of yet is because Tree is on Eichel and that's his only focus right now. He could very well be a piece that defines whether we compete or rip it down and build anew.

[Enoch Root]

To Buffalo: '22 1st, '23 1st, '22 2nd, '22 2nd
To Calgary: Jack Eichel


Ban hammer

[VladtheImpaler]

I think that there is zero chance of a tear-down if we miss on Eichel. Just will not be allowed.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To Buffalo: '22 1st, '23 1st, '22 2nd, '22 2nd
To Calgary: Jack Eichel


Ban hammer

I'd happily spend two picks in the 16-32 range + two picks in the 45-64 range for a top-10 centre in the league. Especially if it meant we kept Pelletier, Zary, and Coronato in the system. That covers us from a young players pushing their way into the roster perspective during the 2-4 year window of contention, and that's all that needs to be the focus. If you're acquiring Eichel your focus is on that sort of window, and those picks aren't really going to pay off in that window in most cases. Pelletier/Zary/Coronato will though.

It may also be appealing to Buffalo that we'd be taking on Eichel's entire $10M without sending any money back. Vegas can't do that. Our cap situation positions us well to do it.

[powderjunkie]

There are complex considerations regarding the potential picks and potential protections to weigh team by team.

If ANA or CBJ is willing to include an unprotected 1st it's a no-brainer to take it and run. Obviously a VGK or TBL unprotected 1st is worth an awful lot less.

From a middling team like CGY or MIN or CHI, would you want a single lightly/un-protected 1st, or two heavily protected 1sts? It seems a sensible opportunity to mitigate risk for both sides.

If CGY's 2022 1st is between 7OA-20OA, BUF receives the pick. If it isn't in that range, BUF receives CGY's 2022 3rd rd pick and CGY's 2024 1st (top 4 protected in perpetuity, with BUF receiving CGY's 3rd each year as necessary).

I'd add a 2023 1st more conditional to Eichel's performance:
- If he plays 60+ games AND scores 60+ points (including playoffs) it is a top 3 protected 1st. If these conditions are met and Calgary is set to pick in the top 3, BUF receives CGY's 2023 2nd and 3rd rd picks.
- If he plays 30-59 games OR scores 30-59 pts, it is the 2023 2nd.
- If less than those, it is the 2023 3rd.


Best of all, it would lock the Flames away from trading away most of their picks.

Dube+Andersson+Pelletier+1st*+1st**


I'd also be trading one of JG/MT for a blue-chip young player+ to replace one of Dube/Pelletier in the deal as the above is probably not quite enough.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I see two outcomes of this trade happening
1. The Flames acquire a young #1 elite centre which instantly upgrades the team
2. The Flames acquire a guy who is injured and can't regain form in which case the Flames are dragged kicking in screaming into a proper rebuild.

Boom or bust. People want out of the soft and gooey middle - one way or the other this does that I think.

Well we either need a proper 1C or a proper rebuild IMO, which is why I would do it.

Either way, the team will be shaken out of this mediocre no man's land they've been drifting through since the 00s, outside of that 2nd overall season that looks more and more like a freak aberration.

I wish we would go all in on meaningful pieces or sell of completely and load up on multiple 1sts, etc like Ottawa did. I am quite sick of *just* being good enough, but not good enough to compete.

[Shazam]

Monahan for Dvorak?

And I thought the Iginla Peca trades were stupid.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Well we either need a proper 1C or a proper rebuild IMO, which is why I would do it.

Either way, the team will be shaken out of this mediocre no man's land they've been drifting through since the 00s, outside of that 2nd overall season that looks more and more like a freak aberration.

I wish we would go all in on meaningful pieces or sell of completely and load up on multiple 1sts, etc like Ottawa did. I am quite sick of *just* being good enough, but not good enough to compete.

Yup I agree. Personally I think going all in is the wrong move because even with Eichel I don't think this team is winning a Cup and then you really mortgage your future. BUT...if they refuse to rebuild then this would at least be somewhat exciting and at least give them a decent shot at catching lightning in a bottle.

[neo45]

The Athletic interviewed two actual NHL execs about theoretical packages for Monahan from Minny and the responses were kind of interesting

Wild send Dumba, Adam Beckman and Pittsburgh’s first-round pick to Flames for Sean Monahan

Exec: “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire in some things, so I would guess it would probably get some thinking, for sure, from Calgary’s perspective. … I’d have to look in detail what their expansion protections are because that would define a forward for D swap. Does that force them to have to protect eight skaters? That would alter how they approach the expansion draft assuming it happens before then. Look, you get in the conversation. Beckman’s a good prospect. He’s going to take some time. Pretty good dart to have. They just made a coaching change there and I don’t think they’re going to want to take a massive step back.”

Exec: (Long silence) “I think that would have some legs. I do. I really do. I think those guys (Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau) are really low on value right now in Calgary. If you’re Billy Guerin, you’ve got the perfect situation when you’re trying to create a trade. You’ve got a team under duress, two-star players that are proven players, but they’ve also in their existing environment have been proven that when the games get bigger, they play smaller. Now, is that them? Is that the overall environment? That’s what you’d be making a bet on. I would take that bet on Sean Monahan if I were the Minnesota Wild. Mostly because you know you’re going to lose Dumba anyhow.”

Wild send Dumba, Fiala and a first-round pick to Flames for Sean Monahan

Exec: “Hard no by Minnesota.”

Exec: “Calgary would do that in a second. I may take that bet if I were the Wild. From Billy’s perspective, he’s already publicly said, ‘Hey, you don’t necessarily have to have centers as long as you have guys that can drive a line.’ And now that Fiala has been finding chemistry with someone else (Marcus Johansson), it’s been pretty powerful for them that they can carry another line. So for them, it means two lines going. So you’re gonna give up on that. But Sean Monahan, I believe, can carry a line. And it gives him strength down the middle. I think he’ll be different somewhere else. Just separating (Monahan and Gaudreau) is going to be good for both of them.”

The fact that an executive actually entertained that second massive package gives me hope about his value league wide

[simmer2]

That exec must have been from the Flames. I would be shocked at that return.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by simmer2

That exec must have been from the Flames. I would be shocked at that return.

Important to note that it was before the dual buyouts so the assumption was Dumba was going unprotected and would be heavily discounted


But still I was surprised at the responses to both packages

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Yup I agree. Personally I think going all in is the wrong move because even with Eichel I don't think this team is winning a Cup and then you really mortgage your future. BUT...if they refuse to rebuild then this would at least be somewhat exciting and at least give them a decent shot at catching lightning in a bottle.

I was just checking how awesome Buffalo has been with Eichel and all their high picks and don't see how he would improve the Flames chances after we trade half our young players to get him.

Kind of like McDavid up the road. If you don't build a proper TEAM you have no chance.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Yup I agree. Personally I think going all in is the wrong move because even with Eichel I don't think this team is winning a Cup and then you really mortgage your future. BUT...if they refuse to rebuild then this would at least be somewhat exciting and at least give them a decent shot at catching lightning in a bottle.

Precisely.

A Montreal/Dallas run is at least possible with a couple elite players injected into this lineup.

With the current make up and core we're first round fodder through and through.

Basically, either go big or go rebuild. We're merely passing time continuing on the same trajectory and MO that we have of late. We'll drain guys like Gaudreau's careers and accomplish nothing, which would be a travesty.

Give them a chance or flip them and build from the ground up.

Tinkering around with ####ing Simons and Pitlicks just to maintain status quo and otherwise keeping this B-level core as is does #### all for us.

Besides, Markstrom might actually be good enough when healthy to be that goalie you can make a run with.

Why did we acquire him and Sutter if we're going to sit around and twiddle our thumbs here.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I think that there is zero chance of a tear-down if we miss on Eichel. Just will not be allowed.

Yeah can't see Tre going in that direction, they are in win now, and he needs the team to have success.

[djsFlames]

You're not in "win now" banking on Gaudreau or Tkachuk to lead you four rounds.

You need an Eichel leading the way.

In a perfect world, Gaudreau is the main support piece for that 1C. That's a formula you can have success with.