Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Tough to say, as I’m definitely not familiar with what the hiring practices are like.

I imagine it broke down in one of a few ways:

- He didn’t do enough due diligence on the hire (reference checks, I suppose - whatever the equivalent is for NHL head coaching hires), because I feel like it’d be quite difficult for the Hurricanes to cover-up the issues entirely

- He did discover some concerns, but he made a judgement that they weren’t a huge concern (not speaking specifically to the racist allegations, more so the player issues in Carolina)

- He didn’t do any due diligence and made the judgement call based on his own personal opinion of Peters

I think all 3 scenarios reflect poorly on Treliving, and whatever his hiring process is.

It’s three garbage coach hires in a row in slightly more than 4 years (June 2016 - September 2020). That’s just ugly work.

I would hazard to say that no GM would have discovered some incident that happened 20 years before, and three teams before (and a minor league team at that). If he could have, why didn’t Detroit or Carolina?

As for the Carolina allegations, apparently they weren’t enough for Francis to fire him, and no one seems to think Francis is incompetent.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the more likely scenario is he did an appropriate amount of diligence and this wasn’t revealed
Companies hire racists every day because they don’t know they are racist.

If he had talked to the Canes do you really think they would have admitted to what had happened? With the coach they had kept employed?

So the only way he likely could have uncovered it would have been by talking to a player that would have willingly shared what happened, including Aliu. But why would they have thought to talk to Aliu?

I would hope as a result they reviewed their process to avoid it in the future. But I think it's an unfair thing to blame him on. If he knew about it and ignored it that's different. But we have no evidence of that being the case.

To be clear, I don’t hang any of the Aliu stuff on Tree - at all. That’d be tough to uncover for all kinds of reasons, especially with how difficult it is for people to come forward with these types of situations. I think he handled it as best as someone could.

The Hurricanes stuff though? I just find it hard to believe Tree did the proper amount of work and failed to uncover anything of concern - and I certainly hope he didn’t uncover anything, because if he did then he’s further down #%^* creek than I’d hope.

The hope for improvement is where I see the value in continued stability. Tree was a rookie GM, and we’ve sunk 7 years into developing him - so yeah, I hope his failures lead to future benefit...I just don’t have all that much Hope left. He’s talked about the difficulty of having to pay the toll twice in regards to adding players at the deadline (having the pay the cost to acquire, and then the cost to protect them from Seattle), and that scares me. The way I took his post-deadline talk was that we’re in store for more shuffling of pieces, rather than improving the team in any meaningful way (elite centre, elite defenceman), or executing a plan to rebuild through the draft.

[Jiri Hrdina]

There were not even whispers of these things until they came out. Which is sadly the historic nature of these things. They are swept under the rug, not talked about, etc.
The blame rests with the Canes for not dealing with Peters.
Once the Flames knew what happened - they dealt with it.

What specific things do you think BT should have done to uncover the concern?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

There were not even whispers of these things until they came out. Which is sadly the historic nature of these things. They are swept under the rug, not talked about, etc.
The blame rests with the Canes for not dealing with Peters.
Once the Flames knew what happened - they dealt with it.

What specific things do you think BT should have done to uncover the concern?

I find it difficult to believe Rod Brind’amour, who openly confirmed he brought the issues up the chain, wouldn’t have mentioned to Tree that the issues existed. Or some player checks.

In the end though, Peters looked like every bit the bad hire when he got out coached handedly by the Avs in the playoffs and then looked like a dud coach right from the start of the 19/20 season.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Massive assumption on your part

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Massive assumption on your part

No larger than the massive assumption you’re making on the other side. When we’re talking about abuse of players on Team A, and you as Team B come in and “poach” said coach from Team A...there’s something wrong if you didn’t find out what was happening on Team A.

There are 31 of these jobs in the world, the hiring process should reflect that - and Treliving’s history of hiring coaches shows he’s not good at it, so I don’t think it’s wild to think his process may be flawed.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The process of hiring bad coaches is different from criticizing him for hiring a racist coach or suggesting negligence on his part for not doing enough work to uncover that BP was a racist.

And I'm not making any assumptions. I'm choosing to judge BT on known facts (how he handled the situation when it came to light) and not speculative ones.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the more likely scenario is he did an appropriate amount of diligence and this wasn’t revealed
Companies hire racists every day because they don’t know they are racist.

If he had talked to the Canes do you really think they would have admitted to what had happened? With the coach they had kept employed?

So the only way he likely could have uncovered it would have been by talking to a player that would have willingly shared what happened, including Aliu. But why would they have thought to talk to Aliu?

I would hope as a result they reviewed their process to avoid it in the future. But I think it's an unfair thing to blame him on. If he knew about it and ignored it that's different. But we have no evidence of that being the case.

Some of us didn’t like the Peters hire because it was another ‘smartest guy in the room’ hire. Nothing to do with the racist incident

He had no success in Carolina, but for some reason that extrapolated to projected success in Calgary

[Jiri Hrdina]

That's a different point though altogether than the one being debated.
The original position was that BT didn't do his homework.

You may have not liked the hire but he did deliver the second best regular season in franchise history. So he did something right.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I can’t believe you actually think that hiring Sutter was primarily Treliving’s idea

It’s one of those ‘I can’t prove it for a fact but I know it to be true’ items

I find it an absurd position to hold, to be honest. You think he went hat in hand to the owners, told them he made a mistake with Ward but that he thinks he can get Sutter now?

And no, we may not find out in the off season. And lots of people agree with me on this, based on the poll option selected by more people than any other option

I believe Treliving said they initially approached Sutter after the Peters departure and revisited it in the offseason. The fact it took the Flames 3 weeks or so to name Ward the HC would suggest there was some discussion about who the coach was going to be. Treliving has also said if they were going to make a move, it was going to be Sutter. So is it a stretch to think the discussions were ongoing with Sutter for sometime? I don’t think so. Bare in mind Sutter had retired. He probably did want to think about it for some time.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Some of us didn’t like the Peters hire because it was another ‘smartest guy in the room’ hire. Nothing to do with the racist incident

He had no success in Carolina, but for some reason that extrapolated to projected success in Calgary

Peters won a World Championship with Treliving. So there’s more to it than his time in Carolina.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok....that's a different topic. The topic at hand was whether Sutter's hiring was a sign of reduced confidence that ownership had in the GM.
If we want to go more broad that's cool.
But I've stated my reasons for retaining BT. Not sure either of us has a fresh take on that or will convince the other.

I believe it is has been reported widely that ownership was involved in the hiring of Sutter as coach, right? So it's really a question of what that means. I believe we'd agree it's unusual that ownership is involved in coaching hires, certainly in Calgary, Couple that with it being coach 5, I believe it is more likely than not that ownership getting more involved in decision making is a negative sign for the GM.

That and the downward trend in the results on the ice and there is reason for me to believe ownership's confidence in Treliving is waning.

Do you have the same confidence in the guy as you did five years ago? Even his biggest boosters on here seem to be saying he has one off season to fix this. Isn't that telling in and of itself?

All I'm really saying is that if it's me, I'm not giving him this last chance. I've seen enough.

Unless as powderjunkie states he has been telling ownership he wants to move on from the core for the last few years and they haven't let him. I personally find that hard to believe. The guy who traded for Hamonic and Lazar and signed the UFA's he did doesn't strike me as all that prescient. I doubt ownership told him to go get those guys.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I have less confidence in the front office, including BT and most specifically pro scouting. I have more confidence in the amateur scouting.
I have less confidence in the core players. Way less confidence. But I've felt that way a long time, longer the most (this isn't a pat on the back, I think most here know that I was advocating for changes to the core quite a ways back). But even then the fall of some of the players is stunning to me. I wasn't big on the forward group but I didn't imagine they would fall THIS much.

But back to the question, I have less confidence in BT but not to the point that I would fire him absent a clearly better option. I would rather see how he handles the off-season.

And I suspect the ownership also has less confidence.

But again that's a different point. In these fluid conversations it's important to remember what I was disagreeing with which was that Sutter's hiring is a signal of that reduced confidence.

I don't see it that way.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The process of hiring bad coaches is different from criticizing him for hiring a racist coach or suggesting negligence on his part for not doing enough work to uncover that BP was a racist.

And I'm not making any assumptions. I'm choosing to judge BT on known facts (how he handled the situation when it came to light) and not speculative ones.

That's not what I was doing though - I'm speaking specifically to the Hurricanes, not the racist part of Bill Peters' past (so my bad if it came off otherwise). He hired 3 awful head coaches in 4 years, and that's hard to explain away in any other way than to just say that he's bad at hiring coaches.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

To be clear, I don’t hang any of the Aliu stuff on Tree - at all. That’d be tough to uncover for all kinds of reasons, especially with how difficult it is for people to come forward with these types of situations. I think he handled it as best as someone could.

The Hurricanes stuff though? I just find it hard to believe Tree did the proper amount of work and failed to uncover anything of concern - and I certainly hope he didn’t uncover anything, because if he did then he’s further down #%^* creek than I’d hope.

and here:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

- He didn’t do enough due diligence on the hire (reference checks, I suppose - whatever the equivalent is for NHL head coaching hires), because I feel like it’d be quite difficult for the Hurricanes to cover-up the issues entirely

- He did discover some concerns, but he made a judgement that they weren’t a huge concern (not speaking specifically to the racist allegations, more so the player issues in Carolina)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I have less confidence in the front office, including BT and most specifically pro scouting. I have more confidence in the amateur scouting.
I have less confidence in the core players. Way less confidence. But I've felt that way a long time, longer the most (this isn't a pat on the back, I think most here know that I was advocating for changes to the core quite a ways back). But even then the fall of some of the players is stunning to me. I wasn't big on the forward group but I didn't imagine they would fall THIS much.

But back to the question, I have less confidence in BT but not to the point that I would fire him absent a clearly better option. I would rather see how he handles the off-season.

And I suspect the ownership also has less confidence.

But again that's a different point. In these fluid conversations it's important to remember what I was disagreeing with which was that Sutter's hiring is a signal of that reduced confidence.

I don't see it that way.

I wasn't referring specifically to Sutter's hiring but the reports that ownership was involved in the decision. That's the tell IMO.

I'm not very convinced Treliving is the guy to turn this around and doesn't really sound like you are either. Maybe I believe the odds of hiring someone better are better than you do though.

But then again this organization hired Jay Feaster.

[Jiri Hrdina]

No to clarify I still have confidence in him. Just less

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No to clarify I still have confidence in him. Just less

I’m in the same spot.

I think there’s value in the 7 years of development with Tree, but my hope/confidence is sinking more and more. I’m intrigued to see what happens this summer...I just really want it to be a different approach. As a fan of this team, I’m Harry and Lloyd sitting on the couches talking about being tired of having to eeek their way through life (fandom).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No to clarify I still have confidence in him. Just less

Why do you think ownership was involved in the Sutter hire but not other coaching hires? Or is that point up for debate?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why do you think ownership was involved in the Sutter hire but not other coaching hires? Or is that point up for debate?

I suspect it is more about levels of involvement. I suspect they are involved in most key decisions - but could just mean they are informed. Or it could be that they approve (doubtful).
In the case of Sutter they could have been more involved because
- The team is underperforming
- The existing coach was being fired mere months into a new deal
- Incremental budget was required
- Pre-existing relationship with Sutter

The level of involvement and influence is what's key. Ultimately what really matters is what is BT's decision that they approved or their decision that was imposed about BT.

I suspect the former but we don't know.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Peters won a World Championship with Treliving. So there’s more to it than his time in Carolina.

I know where they worked together and he wasn’t being hired to coach an all star team with arguably the best roster in the world in a short tournament. I couldn’t care less if he played a mean trombone or could juggle. He was being hired as a NHL coach, at which he had no real success.