Brad Treliving needs to go

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

...Finally, another sign that we should’ve been weary of Bennett was when he was getting outplayed by Andrew Mangiapane in the prospects games in Penticton. I watched those games specifically to see him play and the only player who managed to impress me was the Bread. When a 6th round pick is outshining the 4th overall pick every shift, that’s not a goos sign. I brushed it off at the time, but in hindsight, maybe it was a sign of things to come.


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Maybe. But these short tournaments on their own provide such small sample sizes that it is hard to make long term projections based on them.

[Goriders]

I realize that everyone is looking for a scapegoat. Treliving ultimately has to be accountable since he’s at the top.

But there are a ton of players that mailed it in this season. Brad’s probably going to get fired because of them.

Tkachuk
Anderson
Monahan
Gaudreau
Bennett
Backlund on many nights

They are the real reason the flames will probably draft in the top 5 or 6.

They should probably apologize to him and the fans who had to watch them.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My hypothesis is that they put a timeline on the rebuild that incentivized the management to try and kick open the contention window early
Which is the biggest mistake made

Agreed. This is consistent with what we have seen since 2004. Clearly this organization has no appetite to follow the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, or any other team that has willfully tanked or strategically entered a rebuild. It’s no coincidence this team has never had a top three pick and only one in the top five in it’s history.

FWIW, Boomer has talked about this on air. He’s made comments such as ‘the foot is always on the gas’ referencing ownership and their expectations. Call it risk management or whatever, but it seems the ownership is far more comfortable with competing for a playoff spot on a yearly basis as opposed to writing your ticket for 4,5,7,10 years without them.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I realize that everyone is looking for a scapegoat. Treliving ultimately has to be accountable since he’s at the top.

But there are a ton of players that mailed it in this season. Brad’s probably going to get fired because of them.

Tkachuk
Anderson
Monahan
Gaudreau
Bennett
Backlund on many nights

They are the real reason the flames will probably draft in the top 5 or 6.

They should probably apologize to him and the fans who had to watch them.

I would agre with his aside from Treliving getting fired. I doubt that happens until summer 2022 at the earliest.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I realize that everyone is looking for a scapegoat. Treliving ultimately has to be accountable since he’s at the top.

But there are a ton of players that mailed it in this season. Brad’s probably going to get fired because of them.

Tkachuk
Anderson
Monahan
Gaudreau
Bennett
Backlund on many nights

They are the real reason the flames will probably draft in the top 5 or 6.

They should probably apologize to him and the fans who had to watch them.

Nah, the list is allot longer than that...

Very few Flames have played well this season

Most are very inconsistent

NHL is a result driven sport, Flames GM refused to address the core and that was a mistake in my opinion.

Flames need a change, direction is just not working

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Agreed. This is consistent with what we have seen since 2004. Clearly this organization has no appetite to follow the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, or any other team that has willfully tanked or strategically entered a rebuild. It’s no coincidence this team has never had a top three pick and only one in the top five in it’s history.

FWIW, Boomer has talked about this on air. He’s made comments such as ‘the foot is always on the gas’ referencing ownership and their expectations. Call it risk management or whatever, but it seems the ownership is far more comfortable with competing for a playoff spot on a yearly basis as opposed to writing your ticket for 4,5,7,10 years without them.

For the record it wouldn't surprise me if Katz did the same thing. The Oiler's historic levels of consistent failure were not intentional. They were a result of remarkable levels of incompetence, as a opposed to a disciplined approach to a rebuild.

They are also no good.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Yeah the list of Flames who have played up to or exceeded expectations this year is really small:
Tanev
Hanifin
Ryan
Lucic maybe (only because the bar is so low)

That's it. That's god-awful.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well I guess we should just fire ownership right? Like send Murray Edwards and co their pink slip and let Brad Treliving go on forever. I don’t know what ownership says, I don’t think any of us can know for certain. Everyone though ownership was too cheap to hire an “elite coach” and they proved a lot of people wrong. So maybe picking on ownership is not fair. They’re not the ones trying to execute the game plan either, that’s 100% Brad. We’re pretty fortunate in that we have an ownership group that can spend to the cap and do not meddle. So again, comes down to Treliving. He’s had a very ideal situation and let’s call a spade a spade here. He severely underperformed just like his players did.

I can see very clearly that you’re a Brad Treliving fan, so I’d be curious to know where you draw the line. At what point would you say enough is enough Brad, you’ve had your chance?

Also, that #2 pick in Laine or PLD is not what makes the Jets good. Heck, they were kicking our butts without Laine or PLD in the line up. The Jets are good because their core is lead by an elite #1 center in Mark Scheifele and they have built through patience by drafting great core players in every position. They have depth everywhere on the ice and if they still had Byfuglien patrolling the blue line, they probably would’ve been perennial Stanley Cup contenders last season and this season.


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I’m not so sure I would calm myself a Treliving fan, but, on balance, I think he is a good GM. I also think the likelihood of him getting let go this offseason to be slim. If he was in danger of being let go, it would have happened along with the Sutter hire. Maloney or Conroy would have been named interim GM and the organization would have cleaned house in the offseason and named a new GM then. Just my two cents.

I’m also not of the mindset that Treliving has above reproach. He has made some costly mistakes and misjudgment’s, he deserves criticism. The Hamonic trade is going to stick with him like the Erat-Forsberg trade has stuck with McPhee. The thing is, any GM who has had tenure is going to have a few blunders on the record. It’s the cost of doing business. But I’m not advocating a bloodletting. I don’t think a change at the position is likely to happen or even called for at this point.

Any GM that replaces Treliving will make mistakes, on that you can be assured. So why replace the one we have? This thread is full of recycled complaints; the Hamonic trade, not acquiring an elite C, not acquiring an elite G sooner, terrible coaching hires, etc etc. None of it matters.

What does matter is what Treliving does over the next 12-16 months. I hope it starts this week with selling off some expiring assets for draft picks/currency. A popular, but shortsighted, complaint is Treliving deals too many picks. Well, maybe he can flip the script this time around.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

For the record it wouldn't surprise me if Katz did the same thing. The Oiler's historic levels of consistent failure were not intentional. They were a result of remarkable levels of incompetence, as a opposed to a disciplined approach to a rebuild.

They are also no good.

True. Long list of desperation type moves up North to try to compete. I think the Flames have been a little more measured in their approach. Trading for Dougie Hamilton vs signing Tomas Vanek to an offer sheet as example.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah the list of Flames who have played up to or exceeded expectations this year is really small:
Tanev
Hanifin
Ryan
Lucic maybe (only because the bar is so low)

That's it. That's god-awful.

Yeah, possibly Mangiapane too, but lots of guys have had long stretches of bad or indifferent play. I don't know if there are cliques on the team where the guys quit caring, but a lot of guys who have played badly.

[madmike]

For those criticizing the Bennett pick, Michael Dal Colle and Jake Virtanen were taken right after him. Nick Ritchie went 10th overall. It was a pretty ugly first round. Bennett was the right pick - he just didn’t work out the way almost every scouting department including the Flames thought he would.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah the list of Flames who have played up to or exceeded expectations this year is really small:
Tanev
Hanifin
Ryan
Lucic maybe (only because the bar is so low)

That's it. That's god-awful.

Ryan's production is less than half of what it was last year and the year before.
I wouldn't call that exceeding expectations. He's been fine though.

Then again, Hanafin's production is also lower, yet I would agree that he has exceeded expectations.

Rittich has heavily outplayed Markstrom. That might count as exceeding expectations.

Here are the Flames top players in points per 60 minutes:
Lindholm: 2.410
Tkachuk: 2.395
Gaudreau: 2.285
Dube: 2.142
Monahan: 2.097

I would say Dube's production has exceeded expectations. He's right in the middle of the top players on the team.
He leads the whole team in even strength points per 60 minutes.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t know that he ignored the centre issue, though it’s huge, like you say. IMO Lindholm was an attempt to deal with it. But the Neal failure put him on RW. And I don’t know that there were any opportunities to corral a better C than Lindholm ever. What better Cs have moved? Tavares (no shot), then nothing until PLD this year.

For me, I feel like they’ve always penciled in Monahan as the #1 center. I mean, I don’t remember ever hearing about any rumblings or rumors about ROR and the Flames or Staal or Tavares. Did the Flames even put in a call to Eric Staal’s agent?

Regardless, I’m just not sure they ever saw the iceberg coming dead ahead and that’s the biggest problem. They didn’t see the warning signs and just assumed the duo would fix itself and go back to the old ways and I think that complacency or apathy or whatever you want to call it has killed them. The playbook was there all along and it may have take a while, but every team has finally seen the page on how to stop them and that duo is officially broken.


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[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Maybe. But these short tournaments on their own provide such small sample sizes that it is hard to make long term projections based on them.

But we’re still talking about 20ish shifts per game. There’s a lot one can read from one game I think . Heck, it only took me one period to realize that Johnny Gaudreau was going to be a real special player for the Flames and it took me about 2 preseason games to realize how big of a mistake that James Neal signing was going to be. I think most people will remember just how little I cared for James Neal almost right from the start. Horrific signing, the worst UFA that I’ve ever witnessed as a fan of this team.

I mean, I couldn’t guarantee with certainty that Sam Bennett was going to turn out to be such a disappointment. But I just think for NHL quality scouts, they should be able to pick these things out more than they do.


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[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

True. Long list of desperation type moves up North to try to compete. I think the Flames have been a little more measured in their approach. Trading for Dougie Hamilton vs signing Tomas Vanek to an offer sheet as example.

Or trading for Hamonic vs. signing Kris Russell. Both teams have had pretty ####ty GM's since 2011. Unfortunately the Oilers have a NHL GM now so that ability to assume that they will suck because of a crappy GM is now gone.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

For me, I feel like they’ve always penciled in Monahan as the #1 center. I mean, I don’t remember ever hearing about any rumblings or rumors about ROR and the Flames or Staal or Tavares. Did the Flames even put in a call to Eric Staal’s agent?

Regardless, I’m just not sure they ever saw the iceberg coming dead ahead and that’s the biggest problem. They didn’t see the warning signs and just assumed the duo would fix itself and go back to the old ways and I think that complacency or apathy or whatever you want to call it has killed them. The playbook was there all along and it may have take a while, but every team has finally seen the page on how to stop them and that duo is officially broken.


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We know he reportedly made a try for Tavares. Staal? Are you talking about the offseason before 2016? He was trending down and coming off a miserable time in NY. He did surge in Minnie. And, at the time, the Flames had just come off their PO win, they had Bennett still coming into his rookie year, and Staal was 32 I think.

O’Reilly I really wanted them to trade for but let’s all be honest - he wasn’t thought of as a 1C back then. 64 points in his best season which was 5 years earlier. I wanted him as a 2C and Backlund would have gone the other way with Bennett (for supposedly expensive ROR and a struggling Reinhart). Turns out he’s a 1C but not exactly an offensive

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I realize that everyone is looking for a scapegoat. Treliving ultimately has to be accountable since he’s at the top.

But there are a ton of players that mailed it in this season. Brad’s probably going to get fired because of them.

Tkachuk
Anderson
Monahan
Gaudreau
Bennett
Backlund on many nights

They are the real reason the flames will probably draft in the top 5 or 6.

They should probably apologize to him and the fans who had to watch them.

Well, when was the last time Johnny/Monahan line playing well? 2018?
Brad just sat on his ass watching, he deserved the blame

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My hypothesis is that they put a timeline on the rebuild that incentivized the management to try and kick open the contention window early
Which is the biggest mistake made

To matters worse, during that acceleration they acquired the wrong pieces to move the team forward; Which further diminished the Flames flexibility when it came time to add, or move some key pieces. More patience and couple more 1st rounders currently being developed, we might be in a different situation with what we need waiting in the wings...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by madmike

While I’d like to see Treliving leave, I think bad luck has had a lot to do with where the Flames are today.

Sam Bennett killed the current version of this team. By all rights he should have been a solid 1C. You really can’t argue with the pick. He looked like a can’t-miss prospect. But he was a miss and instead the Flames have been stuck using Monahan as a 1C and he’s just not good enough.

Had Bennett actually turned into the player he should have been, I really think the Flames would have been a perennial contender instead of the bubble team they’ve been.

I've refuted this many times...4OA pick is only a bit better odds than a coin flip to get a top half of the roster player.

Backstrom. Johansen. Ricci. Weiss. These are the 4 best C's from this slot in 30 years.

Of the 18 forwards drafted in that time, Bennett is probably 10th-11th best - ie. slightly below average. Kariya, Marner, B Tkachuk, E Kane, Ladd are the other 5 definitely ahead of him, PullRV TBD. Some nice players, but all are more complimentary than cornerstone.

Everyone had unrealistic expectations b/c he was our highest ever pick, and b/c Sean and Chucky are in the top quartile of 6OA picks.

Originally Posted by zamler

No, because:

After 7 years no it isn't, talking about Treliving in nebulous terms at this point is rationalizing failure.

Again, it's about looking forward, not simply measuring past W's and L's. Is there a better replacement available to navigate the next 12-18 months? We're in an unprecedented situation here, and the team clearly needs immediate changes.

Do you want to wait for an outsider to get up to speed on both the Flames and the operational realities of COVID NHL? Who?

Lombardi's been out for a few years...Futa

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well what exactly were the owners expecting after trading Jarome Iginla and Kipper retiring? They didn’t request any huge trades or massive UFA signings in 2013 or in 2014 to try to recoup the franchise players they had lost. There’s no evidence that suggests any shortsightedness on ownership‘s part.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My hypothesis is that they put a timeline on the rebuild that incentivized the management to try and kick open the contention window early
Which is the biggest mistake made

I don't even know that they were in a rush to kick open the window, but that once there was a crack of light after '14-15 it was pedal to the floor. We can't forget who was POHO at that point...look at how he operated in TOR and ANA.

[McG]

I’m on the release Treliving but the Flames won’t vote.

The GM’s job is to oversee the building of the franchise for today and plan for tomorrow. That’s it. Nothing else.

The body of work exists now which shows that the team has been trending down and our prospects pool as a whole is weak.

Treliving has terrible asset management and that is why we don’t see any players coming from the farm. Trading draft picks away for “depth defensemen” shows a complete lack of development.

There should be a mandate that if a player refuses to sign an extension, they get traded. It is absolutely crazy that both Brodie and Hamonic were allowed to leave for nothing. Treliving knew that Brodie was not re-signing and should have put him on the auction block. Hamonic was always going to leave and Treliving should have known this and traded for picks.

There are no mangiapanne or gaudreau picks in the 3rd or 4th rounds when those picks are somewhere else for UFAs.

Picking coaches 3 times now without interviewing other coaches is the stupidest thing for hiring that I’ve heard at this level and means that there is zero influx of new ideas because all that was hired was the person that the GM wanted. We just did it again with Sutter! It is absolutely insane to keep doing that over and over again.

Two of the best trades were Russell to Dallas and Glencross to Washington. He didn’t fleece either team but he got assets back on expiring contracts.

Draft and develop, draft and develop, draft and develop. That’s the long term strategy for success. And if you can’t draft and develop, then change the people that are drafting and developing. I know that it can be a crapshoot to draft and develop, so do it a lot and do it well.

Treliving: terrible asset management, terrible processes, terrible results.