Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy
As many posters know I am close with one of the owners and I can say this - the policy is largely hands off when it come to team operations.
Although I strongly suspect the decision to hire Sutter was not Tre's.
Further to this
I really wonder if they dont miss a Burke type (POHO) guy because they never really replaced him...and a guy in that position IMO should be a "hockey guy". Whether playing or coaching or extensive management experience or some combination of it all.
I think John Bean took that spot? But AFAIK he has zero hockey experience though very successful as an executive on the financial side of things.
Not sure, but it certainly feels like something changed after BB left that never really was addressed.
2016 notwithstanding as we made out pretty good with Tkachuk, 2011-14 drafts tell a tale of 2 small market Canadian franchises
2011 - jets get schiefele at 7, we get Baertschi at 13
2012 - jets draft Trouba at 9, we get Janko 21 and a 2nd round pick of sfa for trading down
2013 - we get mony at 6, jets get morrisey at 13
2014 - we get bennett at 4, jets get ehlers at 8
Over this 4 year period, jets drafted a 1c, 2 top 4 d and top 6 f. We did not. Hope the jets scouts got a good bonus for their work.
Ha ha By the end of the 2012-13 season the Flames clearly won the 2011 Draft, Schiefiele 11 NHL games 1 goal with 1 pt in 10 AHL playoff games
Baertschi was on his way to being all world with 25 NHL games 6 goals 13 pts (over .5 pts a game) and 26 pts in 35 games in the AHL a league he was obviously too good for.
Flames should have trade Baertschi for Schiefele and a 3rd.
You wonder how it would have turned out had the Jets drafted Baertschi and gave him a full year with no call ups like the Jets did to 2011 #67 overall Lowry. Lowry out of the same draft didn't get a sniff of the NHL until 2013-14 about the time that Baertschi started his downward trend
On the upside it seems that the Flames have learned and are not playing Pelletier in the top 6 this year... Baertschi-style
I don't get why we haven't seen something else tried with the defense pairings.
Understand why you leave Tanev and Hanifin together, but when two coaches pretty much left that other pairing to suffer you just shake your head.
Ward had him with Valimaki for three or four games, and it really worked.
I'd love to see if it's Giordano losing a step that's tanking the duo, or Andersson.
I actually wanted to see Gio & Tanev + Andersson & Hanifin together. I think Gio and Tanev would’ve been a very strong pair and would’ve given Gio the freedom to really act as a 4th forward. Hanifin’s game might’ve suffered a bit, but I’d prefer to have 2 pairings with 1 quick, 1 slow skater vs the current 2 slow and 2 quick.
That Andersson and Gio pair have not been good this season and I think their lack of mobility has a lot to do with it. Gio’s biggest drawback is his lack of mobility, but Brodie was always able to cover up for Gio when he did make mistakes. Now he’s not getting that support anymore and we’re seeing that pairing struggle with the pace of the game and details.
Now you have 2 of your best offensive defensemen taking less risks because they’re worried about giving up odd man rushes and you have the Tanev-Hanifin pairing that has been great defensively, but not providing much offensive punch.
This team relies on getting a lot of it’s offense from the defense. That’s actually Brad Treliving’s philosophy, very much like Nashville. But they haven’t done that this season and it has contributed greatly to the lack of scoring this season.
I am not close with any of the owners (not alway true) but that second statement sure has the aroma of truth.
Think about what that means for the GM.
For sure. But I think he is safe for now. He's coming to the end of year 1 of a 3 year contract and given they are already paying for two head coaches and with austerity measures in effect I don't see a new GM being hired this year.
EDIT: And I think the Sutter hiring had a lot to do with getting an icon back into the organization as a message to season ticket holders who are going to be receiving their renewal notices later this spring.
Last edited by Manhattanboy; 04-03-2021 at 04:12 PM.
Good post. I’m not really a fan of scapegoating ownership without a little more evidence to support it.
And for all the moaning of our bad luck, losing Byfuglien for nothing was a big blow for them. Point is it happens to all teams and i’m not convinced Flames have more than their share.
Exactly, anybody that bad mouths or blames ownership should be ashamed. Would they prefer Ottawa’s situation where their openly cheap GM interferes with hockey operations and decisions? Then goes out of his way to embarrass the entire franchise every time he’s in front of a microphone? I believe Darryl Katz and Francesco Acquilini have also meddled a bit in their own team’s affairs and have had to publicly quell backlash or answer difficult questions. Murray and co stay away from that and give Brad more freedom than most. He appears to have a robust set of executives, assistants and scouts. Plenty of money for buyouts and coaching fires. This team spends max to cap, they invest in the community and they don’t act scummy. Like what more do people want from a small market ownership group?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Following User Says Thank You to Classic_Sniper For This Useful Post:
As many posters know I am close with one of the owners and I can say this - the policy is largely hands off when it come to team operations.
Although I strongly suspect the decision to hire Sutter was not Tre's.
This seems very much the case to me. The hockey world is small and tight knit. Insiders seem to know everything and the rumor mill is always churning. We never hear anything controversial from ownership so I in turn do not bad mouth them. Heck, Murray Edwards doesn’t even live on this continent so he’s probably very hands off.
They ultimately don’t make the decisions that occur on the ice which is the real problem. So that’s what I focus my attention on. Roster construction, the plan, the vision and the execution.
Hands off doesn’t mean you aren’t setting expectations or objectives
From there they are likely hands off but I would bet they define some expectations
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
The "Top pair":
Giordano - lost a step. I don't think he is anywhere as bad as some people claim he is now. I still think he is this team's best 2-way defencemen. Maybe that's an issue on its' own, but he is still a very good defencemen.
Andersson - I don't see him as a top pairing guy. I see him more as a middling defencemen, or even a bottom-pairing defencemen with 'upside'. Look, he isn't very dynamic - his point totals show that. He has a good shot, and not much else. His skating is weak, and he gets walked too often. I don't hate him, but in my eyes, he is expendable. He is still young enough that you can hope he develops, but I don't see it right now.
The "middle pair" - some people call this the top pairing. I disagree. I would insist that they are your 'shutdown pairing' - if that's good enough for you to be considered a top pair, then I guess don't read any further. In my opinion, a top pair has to produce offence while also being good defensively. Strong 2-way play. We were blessed with having Giordano - Brodie for a few years that completely chewed up minutes and tilted the ice, and generated a tonne of offence. This middle pair of Hanifin and Tanev don't do that. They are a pair that you can throw out against anyone and they will stop those players from hurting you, but they don't really do enough to help you win. They don't generate enough offensively, I mean. I don't have an issue with them, but I don't think you can consider them a top pairing if they are not generating offence.
The bottom pairing(s) - let's just cover them all here.
Valimaki - some people don't see the upside any longer. That's fair. I am giving him a write-off this year based on his circumstances, and the team circumstances.
Nesterov - Liked him to start, still shows flashes of being a capable everyday defencemen, but nothing special.
Stone - I like him more than most people on this site, but let's face it - he is just going to be a 7th defencemen from now on.
Kylington - Wish he got the minutes - not just this season, but it makes me wonder if he was given more rope, if he would have taken a step forward. Instead, the Flames shoved Forbort and Gustaffson, and now Nesterov and Stone ahead of him. Did they stunt his development? Was his ceiling really low regardless? I don't know... but maybe if the Flames actually have him the minutes he needed to help him develop, we could have been able to see how he was developing.
Flames defence are weak IMO. Brodie departing has been hard on this team, as Andersson hasn't been able to replace him offensively or defensively. Giordano is getting older. Hanifin and Tanev are more 'defensive defencemen' that don't generate a lot, which hurts on a team that has trouble generating offence. Rest is just questionable at best right now.
I am not high on this team at any position right now, but defence needs to be worked out both short term and long term.
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Calgary4LIfe For This Useful Post:
2016 notwithstanding as we made out pretty good with Tkachuk, 2011-14 drafts tell a tale of 2 small market Canadian franchises
2011 - jets get schiefele at 7, we get Baertschi at 13
2012 - jets draft Trouba at 9, we get Janko 21 and a 2nd round pick of sfa for trading down
2013 - we get mony at 6, jets get morrisey at 13
2014 - we get bennett at 4, jets get ehlers at 8
Over this 4 year period, jets drafted a 1c, 2 top 4 d and top 6 f. We did not. Hope the jets scouts got a good bonus for their work.
I think this helps to illustrate just how much good fortune plays into good drafting:
2011 — Ryan Nugent-Hopkins was the top-rated skater, Sven Baertschi was the #7-best NA prospect, and Mark Scheifele was not even in the top-10. Nugent-Hopkins, Strome, Zibanijad and Huberdeau were selected ahead of Scheifele, and he is arguably better than all of them.
2012 — Trouba was the #9 ranked NA skater in a fairly baffling draft. It is frustrating that the Flames moved down to select Jankowski.
2013 — Monahan was the #5 ranked NA skater, and currently leads the entire Draft class in goals, and is #3 in scoring after eight years. Morrisey was an astute pick.
2014 — Bennett was the #1 ranked NA skater, and Ehlers was not ranked in the top-ten. Of the six forwards selected ahead of him Ehlers has outscored all but Draisaitl.
Winnipeg deserves a tonne of credit for making the most of their picks, but they were also incredibly fortunate that Scheifele and Ehlers in particular have worked out as well as they did. I don't believe for a moment that anyone inside and outside of the Jets organisation projected either of these two guys as top-line NHL players. Scheifele's numbers coming out of Juniour were identical to Monahan's in his draft year.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
People that blame ownership are just trying to justify why Treliving sucks so bad
They don’t tell you that he spent to the cap max every year...and the coach choices are his
Or the little run in 2015 reminded them of '04 and they've just been chasing that dream ever since.
There are also stark similarities between Burke's abortion of a rebuild in TOR and his time here. His MO is to push chips into the middle as soon as he thinks he has a shot of winning.
Will we salvage this as well as they managed to salvage Kessel+Phaneuf and also luck into Marner + Matthews? I'm not holding my breath, but who knows.
The Following User Says Thank You to powderjunkie For This Useful Post:
2016 notwithstanding as we made out pretty good with Tkachuk, 2011-14 drafts tell a tale of 2 small market Canadian franchises
2011 - jets get schiefele at 7, we get Baertschi at 13
2012 - jets draft Trouba at 9, we get Janko 21 and a 2nd round pick of sfa for trading down
2013 - we get mony at 6, jets get morrisey at 13
2014 - we get bennett at 4, jets get ehlers at 8
Over this 4 year period, jets drafted a 1c, 2 top 4 d and top 6 f. We did not. Hope the jets scouts got a good bonus for their work.
Hellebuyck at 130 helped a lot, too. (of course we got Johnny late).
WPG has also been shrewd to not waste high picks on goalies...only a 59OA on Eric Comrie in 2013.
In the same timeframe we've spent a 34, 54, 75, but our best results were Brossoit at 164 and hopefully Wolf at 214!
The Following User Says Thank You to powderjunkie For This Useful Post:
Yep. How many times have we seen this team hang onto players too long, graft some mediocre new pieces onto a mediocre core, and essentially cross their fingers and hope that it will turn out different next season?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
As many posters know I am close with one of the owners and I can say this - the policy is largely hands off when it come to team operations.
Although I strongly suspect the decision to hire Sutter was not Tre's.
Largely, sure. But if Treliving says he’s going to trade the team’s biggest stars for younger assets, and the team will likely be out of the playoffs for 3 to 5 seasons, I doubt the response would be “sure, whatever you think is best, Brad.”
My assumption is ownership’s influence extends only as far as the strategic direction of the team: make the playoffs / all-in to win the Cup / rebuild. But if Treliving’s marching orders for his entire tenure has been “make the playoffs” (and I personally believe they have), then that influences the kinds of deals Treliving can and cannot make.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Hellebuyck at 130 helped a lot, too. (of course we got Johnny late).
WPG has also been shrewd to not waste high picks on goalies...only a 59OA on Eric Comrie in 2013.
In the same timeframe we've spent a 34, 54, 75, but our best results were Brossoit at 164 and hopefully Wolf at 214!
Hopefully tree learned his lesson on using early picks on goalies. Wolf a good step in the right direction. One draft that stings is 2017. We draft Zach Fisher and D’artagnan Joly in rounds 5&6 and watch Montreal draft Cayden Primeau in round 7. Big miss there. But par for the course until wolf (hopefully)
The "Top pair":
Giordano - lost a step. I don't think he is anywhere as bad as some people claim he is now. I still think he is this team's best 2-way defencemen. Maybe that's an issue on its' own, but he is still a very good defencemen.
Andersson - I don't see him as a top pairing guy. I see him more as a middling defencemen, or even a bottom-pairing defencemen with 'upside'. Look, he isn't very dynamic - his point totals show that. He has a good shot, and not much else. His skating is weak, and he gets walked too often. I don't hate him, but in my eyes, he is expendable. He is still young enough that you can hope he develops, but I don't see it right now.
The "middle pair" - some people call this the top pairing. I disagree. I would insist that they are your 'shutdown pairing' - if that's good enough for you to be considered a top pair, then I guess don't read any further. In my opinion, a top pair has to produce offence while also being good defensively. Strong 2-way play. We were blessed with having Giordano - Brodie for a few years that completely chewed up minutes and tilted the ice, and generated a tonne of offence. This middle pair of Hanifin and Tanev don't do that. They are a pair that you can throw out against anyone and they will stop those players from hurting you, but they don't really do enough to help you win. They don't generate enough offensively, I mean. I don't have an issue with them, but I don't think you can consider them a top pairing if they are not generating offence.
The bottom pairing(s) - let's just cover them all here.
Valimaki - some people don't see the upside any longer. That's fair. I am giving him a write-off this year based on his circumstances, and the team circumstances.
Nesterov - Liked him to start, still shows flashes of being a capable everyday defencemen, but nothing special.
Stone - I like him more than most people on this site, but let's face it - he is just going to be a 7th defencemen from now on.
Kylington - Wish he got the minutes - not just this season, but it makes me wonder if he was given more rope, if he would have taken a step forward. Instead, the Flames shoved Forbort and Gustaffson, and now Nesterov and Stone ahead of him. Did they stunt his development? Was his ceiling really low regardless? I don't know... but maybe if the Flames actually have him the minutes he needed to help him develop, we could have been able to see how he was developing.
Flames defence are weak IMO. Brodie departing has been hard on this team, as Andersson hasn't been able to replace him offensively or defensively. Giordano is getting older. Hanifin and Tanev are more 'defensive defencemen' that don't generate a lot, which hurts on a team that has trouble generating offence. Rest is just questionable at best right now.
I am not high on this team at any position right now, but defence needs to be worked out both short term and long term.
I think you nailed it. I think this is also why our forwards are struggling, the defense inability to start the plays and support the forwards. I think this is also why our offense has dried right up. Our D makeup is way different the last couple years, where our forwards have remained pretty much the same.
Hopefully tree learned his lesson on using early picks on goalies. Wolf a good step in the right direction. One draft that stings is 2017. We draft Zach Fisher and D’artagnan Joly in rounds 5&6 and watch Montreal draft Cayden Primeau in round 7. Big miss there. But par for the course until wolf (hopefully)
By the time a team gets past Rounds #3 or #4 there are no "big misses." If any of these players plays even a single NHL game that is a huge win.
Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
