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Old 03-27-2021, 12:08 PM   #161
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It comes down to the same thing. He can’t do a decent trade because he doesn’t have big assets to use. He was saddled with mediocre assets and mediocre draft positions. Never drafted top 5, never had a pick higher than mid to low frost to trade except for the Tkachuk draft, and that would have been nuts. So he’s had to go with UFAs and that almost never works out (mind you, his last 2 big UFAs are good gets).
The last 3 months of the 2018-19 season and subsequent AVS playoff series should have been a crystal clear signal. It’s gotten progressively worse since then.

At this point, no team is going to pay anything near what a lot of posters are expecting for the Flames’ “top players”.
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Old 03-27-2021, 12:18 PM   #162
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By this logic Treliving can stay as the GM forever if he never gets better assets to work with. No responsibility for him to do a better job.


This is basically the same argument that it's not Treliving's fault that guys on the team failed him when they didn't play up their perceived potential. It's fascinating how this can even be consider to be a valid argument.
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Old 03-27-2021, 12:19 PM   #163
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By this logic Treliving can stay as the GM forever if he never gets better assets to work with. No responsibility for him to do a better job.


This is basically the same argument that it's not Treliving's fault that guys on the team failed him when they didn't play up their perceived potential. It's fascinating how this can even be consider to be a valid argument.
Which portion of “crystal clear signal” did you not comprehend?
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Old 03-27-2021, 01:32 PM   #164
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“Saddled”. He has been GM for seven years, you are taking the Treliving apologism to new heights IMO.

It’s funny if his recent UFA signings were playing poorly after 39 games we’d be saying far too early to judge.But Tanev is earning his salary so far, no arguments here.

We can agree or disagree on how good a job the GM has done, but I don’t get how he escapes accountability.
He shouldn’t. I put the blame squarely on the players and Treliving. He chose the players to execute his flawed vision. He essentially chose to go all in when he acquired Dougie Hamilton, Travis Hamonic and that slew of mediocre goaltenders all the while ignoring quite possibly the most important position of all, center. He tried to cover up that mistake by moving Lindholm to center, but that just opened up a massive hole on the right side that he’s failed to fill out over his entire tenure here.

I like a lot of what Treliving did. But I also hate a lot of players he acquired. His player evaluation is his weakest attribute, but it also happens to be the most important attribute IMO. This team is flawed they need to rebuild and I just don’t think Treliving is going to do that. He’ll probably continue to retool and we’ll be the same old mediocre Calgary Flames for another decade.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:03 PM   #165
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“Saddled”. He has been GM for seven years, you are taking the Treliving apologism to new heights IMO.

It’s funny if his recent UFA signings were playing poorly after 39 games we’d be saying far too early to judge.But Tanev is earning his salary so far, no arguments here.

We can agree or disagree on how good a job the GM has done, but I don’t get how he escapes accountability.
I’ve already said he should be fired - I don’t know how much more accountable you want me to make him.

What I’m saying is that I’m not sure what moves people expected when his core, other than Tkachuk and Lindholm, were put there before. I guess people are arguing he needed to trade Monahan and Gaudreau three years ago. Can you imagine the outcry? Hell, people argued he was way to cheap when signing Gaudreau and it cost the team a couple years of contract.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:09 PM   #166
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He shouldn’t. I put the blame squarely on the players and Treliving. He chose the players to execute his flawed vision. He essentially chose to go all in when he acquired Dougie Hamilton, Travis Hamonic and that slew of mediocre goaltenders all the while ignoring quite possibly the most important position of all, center. He tried to cover up that mistake by moving Lindholm to center, but that just opened up a massive hole on the right side that he’s failed to fill out over his entire tenure here.

I like a lot of what Treliving did. But I also hate a lot of players he acquired. His player evaluation is his weakest attribute, but it also happens to be the most important attribute IMO. This team is flawed they need to rebuild and I just don’t think Treliving is going to do that. He’ll probably continue to retool and we’ll be the same old mediocre Calgary Flames for another decade.
I think Lindholm was acquired to be a centre (because of Bennett) and he was put on RW out of necessity. RW is a huge hole, obviously, and his big attempt to fill the spot failed miserably. But I’m not under the illusion that a good RFW fixes the team. The first line is still not elite no matter who’s on RW, short of a Kane.

The problem is that the team has some very good, but not great, players. They caught fire in a couple years, but were exposed in the POs. Every top player on Calgary is a good add, but not a central player, on a consistent contender. they are Kessel/Gaborik/Hossa/Richards. They aren’t Getzlaf/Crosby/Kopitar/Kane.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:14 PM   #167
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The argument is that after 7 years you should add more than two players to your core. And it should take less than 7 years to get an NHL goaltender and an NHL coach? Should line those up earlier in the team’s progression.
Should take less than 7 years to know what you have in your core.

Due diligence is part of the problem with the management team:
Case: Peters, Hamilton, Neal, maybe Tkachuk as well
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:21 PM   #168
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Hamilton and Tkachuk? Based on what? Boy we've really turned on Tkachuk after one bad partial season.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't move him for the right return, but there's a lot of distance in between that and now saying the Flames didn't do "enough due diligence on him"

I also disagree with BT being blamed for not doing enough homework on Peters. Clearly the entire hockey world, except those who were involved, were unaware.
If anything the Canes should be blamed for not telling BT about the incident.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:23 PM   #169
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I’ve already said he should be fired - I don’t know how much more accountable you want me to make him.

What I’m saying is that I’m not sure what moves people expected when his core, other than Tkachuk and Lindholm, were put there before. I guess people are arguing he needed to trade Monahan and Gaudreau three years ago. Can you imagine the outcry? Hell, people argued he was way to cheap when signing Gaudreau and it cost the team a couple years of contract.
I think when it comes down to it, it’ll be more about the core and foundation he decided to go with. Live by the sword, die by the sword. He built ultimately built his foundation on straw while the elite teams found concrete. No matter how Treliving dressed up the interior and exterior, the foundation was always going to collapse.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:24 PM   #170
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^A few years ago many people felt those players had another step to make and would.
They didn't.
But easy to manage with the benefit of hindsight.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:29 PM   #171
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The point is not just aboutPeters on its own, it is more about the players acquired with questionable reputation that was disregarded, it is really about the process which worked really well in Phoenix
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:40 PM   #172
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^A few years ago many people felt those players had another step to make and would.
They didn't.
But easy to manage with the benefit of hindsight.
5 years ago they’d just drafted Bennett, who looked pretty good in the POs. It took a couple years to even figure out he wasn’t a 1C in the making.

Then they got Hamilton. Big first pairing RHS D, that everyone looks for and he looked good.

Then Bennett is looking more and more like not a 1C. So you have to trade Hamilton for Lindholm to at least have a couple strong Cs in Monahan and Lindholm, since you don’t have an elite one. And you draft Tkachuk who looks great. You also have Hanifin because you needed a D back, and he looks pretty good.

Hamonic was supposed to be the shutdown D that Tanev became and obviously that was an evaluation mistake. Neal was supposed to be the RW that allowed Lindholm to be a C. But he wasn’t and Lindholm has to be RW.

But that team takes first in the division - terrific! Andersson looks good. Valimaki looks good. Mangiapane and Dube look good. So what do they need? Better goaltending and an improvement on Hamonic. And another C, so they try and get Kadri - no dice. A RW, so they try for Stone - no dice. And his coach that did well turns out to have... issues. The rest is history. Though his offseason this last year, I have no issue with the two big moves. The only thing different in hindsight - maybe trade Gio and try and keep Brodie instead, if possible.

In Treliving’s shoes, he was making moves that should have improved the team. They just didn’t pan out. It’s a results league so he has to bear the outcome of that, but it’s hard to imagine some other GM doing a whole lot better.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:42 PM   #173
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BT makes a lot of money to make big decisions sometimes unpopular. He does not like to make unpopular decions but that is how you win.

The whole world hated K Nilsson move for two seconds well
It turned out ok we got Joe. To make a decision about coaching by asking the players what they want is crazy. Tells me you are not ready to be a GM and make hard decisions.

Know where you want to go have a plan. Stick to your plan.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:42 PM   #174
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The point is not just aboutPeters on its own, it is more about the players acquired with questionable reputation that was disregarded, it is really about the process which worked really well in Phoenix
Apart from Neal for whom does that actually apply?
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:46 PM   #175
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How about Hamilton clearly Boston wanted him out. Clearly Carolina did not think much of Peterson
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:49 PM   #176
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^A few years ago many people felt those players had another step to make and would.
They didn't.
But easy to manage with the benefit of hindsight.
It's not hindsight when you see it 3 years in a row. I can see them getting another year after the Colorado embarrassment. But last year's playoffs showed that Colorado wasn't a one off. We're now going into year three and this core isnt even going to make the playoffs. Changes should have been made after last season.


Edit. Yes we got a supposed stud goalie and Tanev has been a lone positive. I'm talking a substantial change in the top 6.

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Old 03-27-2021, 02:50 PM   #177
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How about Hamilton clearly Boston wanted him out. Clearly Carolina did not think much of Peterson
Hamilton had zero reputation issues and Peters quit Carolina to come to Calgary - he didn’t get fired. In fact, IIRC, he had the option which they would have taken.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:54 PM   #178
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Hamilton is a tier one defenceman. Top 10 in the league, it seems that when players leave the Flames they get better. If Fox continues his current path they will have traded two top ten defensemen in one trade. Now some of you want to dump Hanifin as well...He will probably be a top 20 guy.

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Old 03-27-2021, 03:01 PM   #179
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Hamilton is a tier one defenceman. Top 10 in the league, it seems that when players leave the Flames they get better. If Fox continues his current path they will have traded two top ten defensemen in one trade. Now some of you want to dump Hanifin as well...He will probably be a top 20 guy.
Fox is a very good defenceman. He is not trending toward top 10 in the league. Thats some serious hyperbole
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Old 03-27-2021, 03:11 PM   #180
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Fox is a very good defenceman. He is not trending toward top 10 in the league. Thats some serious hyperbole
No its not too far off if you value points. I hate him as much as the next guy for not signing with us but he was just a hair back of Makar and Quinn last year.
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