Cameron documentary claims to have found Jesus' Tomb. Oh, and dead body too... - Page 14 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

FireFly · 02-26-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

I just kinda want to throw this out there, as I saw it earlier in the thread even though it is not being debated currently.

Regarding Athiesm and Agnosticism. I would wager that there are far fewer athiests than agnostics. However, most people tend to lump agnostics together, which is far far far from true. I believe that there is a spectrum, where at one end, the devout theists reside, and at the other, the absolute athiests. In between these two remain all the agnostics...but there can be a huge difference in their belief systems.

I am an agnostic. we'll say sitting at the 10-15% mark (with theists at 100, athiests at 0). There "could" be a god. I find it very improbable that there is, but I cannot discount the possibility.

I do think that pure athiesm is fundamentally as flawed as pure theism, BUT I think that most athiests are wrongly classified, and are really just very low on the spectrum. I could be wrong, just my thoughts.

The definition of atheism is that they don't believe in God at all. If they think there's a remote possibility, they are not an athiest, they are agnostic. Either the door is open or it isn't. Open a smidgeon is still open.

*Edit* I should clarify. I think you're not necessarily wrong but it's that agnostics wrongfully categorize themselves as atheist when they've indeed left the door open.

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burninator

How is an outsider suppose to know what christians to listen to? There is so much conflicting evidence among fellow christians. It's like a fail safe in an argument.

According to the poster I was quoting, he went to a Christian school, where was taught all that stuff.

But instead of going to the Bible and looking up the information, such as St. Peter standing at the pearly gates, he jumps to conclusions that many Christians believe that.

I don't.

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sooo... stories like David and Goliath, King Solomon, Jesus turning water into wine... these are just children's stories, but not meant to be believed in literally? Because these were the stories I was taught, and they were all presented as 100% true and accurate, not a children's concept like the Easter Bunny or Santa. In the end I realize they're fantasy (imo), but many many children are indoctrinated successfully to believe in them.

No, those stories are actually in the Bible. Now are those stories 100% true and accurate. I won't even answer that question, since you seem to have made up your mind already.

St. Peter standing at the pearly gates is not in the Bible, nor are there Golden Bugles.

RougeUnderoos · 02-26-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

That verse makes no mention of St. Peter standing at the pearly gates.

Neither you or I are qualified to decipher the bible "correctly", but it's plainly obvious that some Christians do believe in St.Peter and the pearly gates. Just because you don't happen to believe it doesn't mean nobody else does.

I've never gone to church for anything but funerals and weddings, and I am well aware of the image and/or the belief. I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying Christians don't believe it because clearly some of them do. Unless of course you are saying "they aren't Christians", which I suppose is possible, maybe even likely.

Agamemnon · 02-26-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

That verse makes no mention of St. Peter standing at the pearly gates.

It was my understanding that Peter held the keys to heaven... and so if heaven is entered through pearly gates... and he holds the keys... I guess thousands upon thousands of christians have made the leap to believe that the two are related.

I don't believe there is a picture in the bible showing Peter at the gates... but then, there are no pictures in the bible.

How about this: do you believe that heaven has pearly gates, and that when you ascend, you walk through them? Because the bible implies that this is the case...

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burninator

I thought the problem was the proving/disproving of god?

Same difference. How are you going to argue about religious logic when you can't prove/disprove that God exists?

Bobblehead · 02-26-2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

It was my understanding that Peter held the keys to heaven... and so if heaven is entered through pearly gates... and he holds the keys... I guess thousands upon thousands of christians have made the leap to believe that the two are related.

I don't believe there is a picture in the bible showing Peter at the gates... but then, there are no pictures in the bible.

How about this: do you believe that heaven has pearly gates, and that when you ascend, you walk through them? Because the bible implies that this is the case...

Matthew 16:19

Cain · 02-26-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFly

The definition of atheism is that they don't believe in God at all. If they think there's a remote possibility, they are not an athiest, they are agnostic. Either the door is open or it isn't. Open a smidgeon is still open.

*Edit* I should clarify. I think you're not necessarily wrong but it's that agnostics wrongfully categorize themselves as atheist when they've indeed left the door open.

Trust me, I know my definitions

That is what I said. Athiests do not believe in god, theists do, and agnostics are somewhere in the middle. But that does not mean right in the middle, as many presume, which was really my point in all of that.

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Neither you or I are qualified to decipher the bible "correctly", but it's plainly obvious that some Christians do believe in St.Peter and the pearly gates. Just because you don't happen to believe it doesn't mean nobody else does.

I've never gone to church for anything but funerals and weddings, and I am well aware of the image and/or the belief. I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying Christians don't believe it because clearly some of them do. Unless of course you are saying "they aren't Christians", which I suppose is possible, maybe even likely.

I think the more traditional...actually here...

Quote:

The ancient Christian Churches, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Anglican Communion, consider Simon Peter a saint and associate him with the foundation of the Church in Rome, even if they differ on the significance of this for the position of the see of Rome and of the Pope in present-day Christianity.

I don't consider him a saint, but then again, I don't agree with many things that the Catholics do or believe in.

But the St. Peter standing at the pearly gates image is just that, an image. Made up for whatever reason. I would seriously doubt that any Christian who actually reads the Bible, would believe that.

Agamemnon · 02-26-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Matthew 16:19

Exactly... the Bible says he has the keys, and that the gates are pearly. Unless there are multiple entrances, or maybe Peter only has the keys for the sliding balcony door or something...

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Matthew 16:19

Talks about Peter being the rock upon which Christ will build his church.

There are two meanings to that statement, both of which have nothing to do with St. Peter holding the keys of heaven and standing at the pearly gates.

Azure · 02-26-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Exactly... the Bible says he has the keys, and that the gates are pearly. Unless there are multiple entrances, or maybe Peter only has the keys for the sliding balcony door or something...

Read the verse.

Here, this is the quote you get from Wikipedia...

Quote:

In art, he is often depicted holding the keys to the kingdom of heaven

An image.

RougeUnderoos · 02-26-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

I would seriously doubt that any Christian who actually reads the Bible, would believe that.

Well you would seriously be wrong. Some Christians do believe it. I'm no expert on Catholicism so I can't say they do believe it, but that's what I've been led to believe.

I'm sure other posters can confirm or deny this.

FireFly · 02-26-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well you would seriously be wrong. Some Christians do believe it. I'm no expert on Catholicism so I can't say they do believe it, but that's what I've been led to believe.

I'm sure other posters can confirm or deny this.

They also believe in purgatory and praying to Mary, neither of which are in the Bible...

Azure · 02-26-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well you would seriously be wrong. Some Christians do believe it. I'm no expert on Catholicism so I can't say they do believe it, but that's what I've been led to believe.

I'm sure other posters can confirm or deny this.

Do we really want to start a debate about the Catholics?

Here, read this...

Quote:

Many argue vehemently against the concept that Jesus was declaring Peter to be the rock. While some of these alternate interpretations are indeed plausible, they are motivated, at least in part, by a faulty assumption. The faulty assumption is that if Peter is the rock of Matthew 16:18, this makes the Roman Catholic Church the one true church. Admittedly, the Roman Catholic Church uses this very argument. On the contrary, Peter being the rock in Matthew 16:18 is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Scripture nowhere records Peter being in Rome. Scripture nowhere describes Peter as being supreme over the other apostles. The New Testament does not describe Peter as being “all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. Peter was not the first pope, and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. The origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Peter, or any other apostle. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, it would be in full agreement with what Peter taught (Acts chapter 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).

Bobblehead · 02-26-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Talks about Peter being the rock upon which Christ will build his church.

There are two meanings to that statement, both of which have nothing to do with St. Peter holding the keys of heaven and standing at the pearly gates.

??

Matthew 16:19 (KJV)

Quote:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isn't that what you thought it said?

FireFly · 02-26-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

??

Matthew 16:19 (KJV)

Isn't that what you thought it said?

The keys of heaven in that scripture are figurative. Jesus is talking about the way to reach heaven. He's also giving the keys of heaven to everyone, not just Peter.

Bobblehead · 02-26-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFly

The keys of heaven in that scripture are figurative. Jesus is talking about the way to reach heaven. He's also giving the keys of heaven to everyone, not just Peter.

OK, but I do think that this passage is where the idea of Peter in control of the pearly gates comes from.

FireFly · 02-26-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

OK, but I do think that this passage is where the idea of Peter in control of the pearly gates comes from.

It could very well be. Catholicism confuses me and I really don't know where they get half the stuff they think from. (As I said purgatory and praying to Mary are not in the Bible at all....)

Azure · 02-26-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

??
Matthew 16:19 (KJV)

Isn't that what you thought it said?

Aye, I read verse 18. My mistake.

Believe it or not, Wikipedia had the wrong verse.

Quote:

It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. When they deal with that question, they ordinarily appeal not to the gift of the keys but to his office as the rock on which the Church is founded. In their references to the potestas clavium, they are usually intent on vindicating against the Montanist and Novatian heretics the power inherent in the Church to forgive. Thus St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church. The whole Church, he urges, exercises the power of forgiving sins.

I do believe the church of Latter Day Saints portrays Peter differently. Maybe not differently, but I do believe they think Peter came in a vision to Joseph Smith.