JohnnyB, I want to add as well that my comments are specifically directed at the Chinese government. Many on this board know me to be a staunch defender of Israel and I too find myself having to point out that criticism of government policy is one thing but too often the country and the people are unfairly targeted.
I'm Chinese and don't conflate anti-CCP with anti-Chinese. 99.99% of these instances are obviously anti-CCP and that's about as far as it goes.
China as a government and world power is extremely dangerous to all countries, economically and socially. It's disturbing to me and extended family on many levels. While there's some mild hysterics going on in this thread, I'm pretty shocked at the whataboutism from long-time CP posters here.
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As to the second paragraph of your statement. It just shows why, China should not have the privilege to host Olympic Games at this point in their existence. People should be free to protest genocide with out censor. The only type of Government that would want to hide that protest from its citizens, is one trying to hide genocide from its citizens.
The problem is that the Olympics have become such expensive boondoggles that few democracies want to host them anymore.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
I like the idea of targeted sanctions on powerful individuals that do business in Canada, and then let them petition their government. China is such a large and powerful country compared to Canada that broad sanctions aren't going to be that useful. Their overall economy doesn't need us.
Canada did something similar with Myanmar this time around. About 15-20 years ago, Canada imposed sanctions that hurt some small villages that housed Canadian companies, but the ruling elite didn't feel it, which is often the case with sanctions.
Here's the deal though, China's economy is bouncing back, but not as fast as they thought it would. On top of that, a lot of the stuff that China buys internationally, Oil, Grain, weapons and electronic technology all requires hard currency. So China's always going to be on the razors edge in terms of their strategic currency.
Even a small bite can hurt.
I like the idea of individual bans and sanctions on government officials, but it should be extended to some of the business leaders here and in China that are intently linked to the CCP. Sanction these individuals or make it hard to sell their goods, and those will be the agents of change.
You want to send a hard shot across the bow, finally answer the question on Huwei banning it from 5G implementation, that would certainly help us with our allies, It would deny the Chinese intelligence services a huge intelligence gathering opportunity, and it would resonate with the CCP because Huwei is intimate with the CCP.
I mean frankly China can keep hurting us, they are in a sense bad international trading partners with every nation in the world. For them trade isn't trade, its you buy our stuff, we'll steal your patents and won't give you full access to our markets unless its for raw resources.
They literally built their economy on the concept of being anti-fair trade.
So yeah, sanction the individuals, but also every nation when it comes time to sit down with China to negotiate trade deals needs to take a hard line in the sand approach. If you won't give us access to your markets, we'll open our markets up and incentivize your competitor nations.
__________________
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 03-22-2021 at 04:55 PM.
Here's the deal though, China's economy is bouncing back, but not as fast as they thought it would. On top of that, a lot of the stuff that China buys internationally, Oil, Grain, weapons and electronic technology all requires hard currency. So China's always going to be on the razors edge in terms of their strategic currency.
Even a small bite can hurt.
I like the idea of individual bans and sanctions on government officials, but it should be extended to some of the business leaders here and in China that are intently linked to the CCP. Sanction these individuals or make it hard to sell their goods, and those will be the agents of change.
You want to send a hard shot across the bow, finally answer the question on Huwei banning it from 5G implementation, that would certainly help us with our allies, It would deny the Chinese intelligence services a huge intelligence gathering opportunity, and it would resonate with the CCP because Huwei is intimate with the CCP.
I mean frankly China can keep hurting us, they are in a sense bad international trading partners with every nation in the world. For them trade isn't trade, its you buy our stuff, we'll steal your patents and won't give you full access to our markets unless its for raw resources.
They literally built their economy on the concept of being anti-fair trade.
So yeah, sanction the individuals, but also every nation when it comes time to sit down with China to negotiate trade deals needs to take a hard line in the sand approach. If you won't give us access to your markets, we'll open our markets up and incentivize your competitor nations.
Interesting. So what would be a good example here in Calgary? Sanctions against Nexen?
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
Here's the deal though, China's economy is bouncing back, but not as fast as they thought it would. On top of that, a lot of the stuff that China buys internationally, Oil, Grain, weapons and electronic technology all requires hard currency. So China's always going to be on the razors edge in terms of their strategic currency.
Even a small bite can hurt.
I like the idea of individual bans and sanctions on government officials, but it should be extended to some of the business leaders here and in China that are intently linked to the CCP. Sanction these individuals or make it hard to sell their goods, and those will be the agents of change.
You want to send a hard shot across the bow, finally answer the question on Huwei banning it from 5G implementation, that would certainly help us with our allies, It would deny the Chinese intelligence services a huge intelligence gathering opportunity, and it would resonate with the CCP because Huwei is intimate with the CCP.
I mean frankly China can keep hurting us, they are in a sense bad international trading partners with every nation in the world. For them trade isn't trade, its you buy our stuff, we'll steal your patents and won't give you full access to our markets unless its for raw resources.
They literally built their economy on the concept of being anti-fair trade.
So yeah, sanction the individuals, but also every nation when it comes time to sit down with China to negotiate trade deals needs to take a hard line in the sand approach. If you won't give us access to your markets, we'll open our markets up and incentivize your competitor nations.
Okay, and where will they hit us back? If we escalate, you have to think they'll acquiesce or retaliate. There is no fataing way they're going to give up the Michaels while we still have their girl, so that leaves retaliation. I have to think we need them more than they need us. Let's leave it at the current stalemate. We're not going to win this fight so let's not make it worse.
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Okay, and where will they hit us back? If we escalate, you have to think they'll acquiesce or retaliate. There is no fataing way they're going to give up the Michaels while we still have their girl, so that leaves retaliation. I have to think we need them more than they need us. Let's leave it at the current stalemate. We're not going to win this fight so let's not make it worse.
They've already been hitting us back, they completely screwed us over the vaccination deal. They've gone after us on agro. I mean lets be honest the trade inbalance between canada and China in 2019 was something like 50 billion dollars (statistica). and its been continually growing.
It'll certainly effect us in terms of selling raw resources, but frankly its not like they go out of the way to trade with us in terms of finished goods or tech.
And yeah right now based on the trade imbalance they need our cash.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I decided yesterday to take some time away and reflect before writing more on this.
It was the post yesterday about how it would be lucky to have NATO go to war and crush China that prompted me to get involved in this thread because of how horrific an expression I found that to be. I still do. Reading that led to me picking out a small number of other things that had been written that I felt were also deserving of being challenged.
From there, maybe there’s some misunderstanding of where people are talking about China’s government and China as a country in its entirety. Maybe there’s also misunderstanding about the scope of what I was addressing, which was just the quotes I picked out and not the whole discussion. I was never intending to address the discussion as a whole.
Still, when someone writes something like:
Quote:
China is an awful, horror show of a country
Quote:
####ty countries like China
Quote:
Originally Posted by undercoverbrother
I'm sorry there isn't a world isn't he multiverse that China isn't a #### hole.
I take that as not just being about the government. If someone were to say Canada is a #### hole country, or a ####ty country, or an awful horror show of a country, I don’t think most people would assume that was just about the Liberal government or Trudeau. Country and government aren’t synonymous. I interpret these as being about the country as whole, including not just the government, but the land, the people, the history, the culture etc. Taken as a whole including all of these aspects, despite the worst aspects of the country I think China is an amazing place. As a whole, it’s far from being a #### hole, or a ####ty country, or an awful horror show. I stand by that completely.
I specifically responded to these posts on the basis of feeling they were saying things in a way that was not just about the government but about the country as a whole. If any of these posts are explicitly about the government and not about the country as a whole, and the poster is willing to say that they don't actually think China as a whole is a ####hole, or ####ty, or an awful horror show, then I accept that poster’s intent was different than I interpreted it and I’ll certainly withdraw my criticism.
Regarding these posts that I picked out:
Quote:
This is essentially like a Jihadist group
Quote:
Xi is starting to get reckless, and there is a year to go, any sort of mass casualty or major attack on infrastructure would make it a sure thing.
The first here actually is explicitly about the government, but it’s also a terrible mischaracterization. The Chinese leadership doesn’t act like Jihadists. That’s not the Chinese way of operating at all. When is the last time that someone waging a Jihad against a country wrote an op-ed advocating for economic cooperation with them? It’s just a total mischaracterization of Chinese leadership. So, I picked that out as ignorant. I also see it as an alarmist mischaracterization given post-9/11 history and fear associated with Jihadists as people intent on murdering you or your fellow citizens.
The second here I also see as fear mongering in suggesting a Chinese mass-casualty attack or an attack on infrastructure is something to be reasonably expected. I could be wrong, but I don’t see that as likely at all and I think it represents a weird interpretation of where China is at.
Quote:
A real leader would play hardball, cut off diplomatic relations and seize everything in our nation owned by China.
Hey, maybe we would get lucky and they would declare war on us and NATO would be forced to crush them.
This quote I have already addressed, so I’ll just reiterate that suggesting it would be lucky for Canada to have NATO crush China in a war is an incredibly inhumane thing to suggest. A war like that would cost huge numbers of innocent lives. War is a fundamentally dehumanizing thing. To suggest that it would be lucky for something like this to happen is a terrible and inhuman expression. I don’t back down from my criticism of it.
Quote:
If our guys are still rotting in Chinese prisons and we send a team it will represent one of the lowest points in the history of this country and no I’m not exaggerating.
This post I included because I also thought it was hyperbole and unreasonable. To suggest that going to these Olympics would be anything like on the same level as things like the residential school system (which is recognized as genocide), or the Japanese internment camps in BC, or eugenics in BC and Alberta etc. is just so unreasonable. Attending these Olympics would not be even close to these other low points in Canadian history. Maybe you disagree, but I would think the vast majority of Canadians would recognize the low points I’m referring to as not comparable to something like going to these Olympics.
Quote:
Meng should be on a one way plane to Guantanamo
For this one, the poster has said it was not meant seriously. I accept that. I took it as written seriously at the time, and it would be a pretty ridiculous betrayal of Canadian values if it were serious, but the poster says that it was not. I accept that.
A few other things I’ll reply to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB
Canada was still engaged in genocide at the time of the '88 games and when most of the posters on CP were growing up here, including me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy
Bull****.
Again, read from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, or just read the history. Canada was clearly and definitively still engaging in genocide at that time. They certainly didn't teach me that when I was back in school either, but it is the case. What’s happening in China is different in scale to what happened in Canada, but not so different in nature or intent. The residential schools in Canada and the camps in China are similar in wanting to erase a culture and group of people through forced separation of families, elimination of language and culture and forced integration into the majority group; both also involving deaths, forced sterilizations, trauma and needless suffering as a result of mistreatment and abuse. The outcomes of both likely also being generations of irreparable harm and suffering.
And, I didn’t make that comparison for the purpose of minimizing what’s happening in China. It was about trying to help with understanding the point that a country, taken as a whole, is not just the worst things that it does. Victims of the residential school system could certainly be empathized with in feeling that Canada was an awful, horror show of a country. It was for them. But, that terrible side of Canada doesn’t adequately define the country as a whole. I take it most people who grew up in Canada back then didn’t consider Canada to be an awful place. Same thing with China. Something terrible can be happening without that being representative of the country as a whole. That's not saying it's not terrible and that nothing should be done to oppose it. It’s just saying that it doesn’t define the country in its entirety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiracSpike
Your schtick of pretending that they're somehow racist is tired
Nowhere, in any of my posts have I accused these posters of being racist. I called out posts on being ignorant, hateful towards the country, or disconnected from reality. I haven’t suggested racism anywhere in any of my previous posts, nor did I intend to. It’s not really what I’ve seen in this thread. If you’re bringing racism into it, that’s your own issue. I’m not accounting for why you in particular rush to a denial of racism when it hasn’t even been suggested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattanboy
JohnnyB, I want to add as well that my comments are specifically directed at the Chinese government. Many on this board know me to be a staunch defender of Israel and I too find myself having to point out that criticism of government policy is one thing but too often the country and the people are unfairly targeted.
Okay. I accept that. I hope you can also understand why I picked out the few quotes that I did on the basis of them seeming to target the whole country rather than the government and made no criticism of other posts clearly targeting the government unless they were something that I saw as pretty out there, alarmist, and disconnected from reality.
On the whole, I wasn’t intending to express that everyone posting in this thread was attacking China as a country in its entirety or the Chinese people. I recognize that most posts have been about how to deal with the Chinese government, and I haven’t criticized or attacked posts that I recognize as such.
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I personally hope to see your account disappear now. Stop shilling for a souless dictatorship that has no respect for its own people. State publicly here that the recent actions by Xi Jingping and Communist Party Leadership against the Uygher people, the people of Hong Kong, and eminently it seems on the people of Taiwan are absolutely unacceptable. State that in no uncertain terms or #### off and be labelled a shill forever.
I don’t know why you seem to think I should be accountable to you in any way. I’m not. Not in the least. I have expressed my views clearly on genocide here and I’ve expressed my views clearly about Hong Kong in other threads. I have been personally affected by these things and people close to me who I care about have been personally affected by these things. Your validation of my experiences and my views of China as a whole are completely unneeded and totally unimportant to me.
Comments like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monahammer
#### off and be labelled a shill forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by undercoverbrother
hitch your wagon to that horse comrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiracSpike
It's perfectly clear to anyone who's not a shill
Say more about the posters writing them than they do about me.
Beyond that, I'll also add that some posts, like the ones suggesting I have a gun to my head in Shanghai to say things in support of the government, or implying that Chinese people all live in fear of their government, I think somewhat encourage a fearful, paranoid view of China. Regardless of innocent or positive intent of these kinds of posts, it’s also the case that fear, paranoia and ignorance can easily fuel xenophobia and posts like that should at least be challenged or clarified to reach a more accurate understanding of the country people are talking about. Life in China is not life in North Korea.
The truth is that the large majority of people in China trust and support their government. The Communist Party, for all it’s problems, has played a huge part in lifting over 800 million people out of poverty, providing them with access to quality education and healthcare, and ensuring they have ample food to eat. In the 40 years since Deng Xiaoping began the process of transforming China's economic system, the country has gone from being an economically and technologically impoverished nation to being right on the verge of leading the world in both categories. Some minorities would certainly describe being oppressed, but no shortage of Chinese are living flourishing lives and lives that are far better than they were in the past. The trend in the last decade has also shown that more and more Chinese nationals who go abroad for education in places like Canada, Australia, the US and the UK are choosing to return to the Mainland to make their lives. Those people choosing to return wouldn’t be doing that if they were so fearful of the Communist Party and yearning to be free of the Party’s oppression. They’re returning because they feel it offers them a better quality of life. Loads of Canadians and Americans in China are also living happy and flourishing lives. People who have spent substantial time in China would know that.
None of that is an excuse for needless brutalities or human rights abuses, and there are plenty of other valid things that China could be criticized for, but these good sides are also realities of the complex picture that is the country as a whole. There's no need to deny them.
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I thought it was pretty clear that I was talking about the current regime, and that my objection was to participating in festivities that said regime would use to glorify itself. To quote The West Wing, as I often do, "I don't recall having to explain to the Italians that our problem wasn't with them, but with Mussolini."
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I thought it was pretty clear that I was talking about the current regime, and that my objection was to participating in festivities that said regime would use to glorify itself. To quote The West Wing, as I often do, "I don't recall having to explain to the Italians that our problem wasn't with them, but with Mussolini."
Okay. Then I withdraw what I said about your post and I apologize for dragging you in.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
I would believe that most in here are in fact referring to the Chinese government and their comments have nothing to do with the people, Johnny. But I can see how frustrating it is to read. And the anti-asian racism that has come out of Covid has been beyond disheartening, so I don't blame anyone for despising anti-Chinese rhetoric. Even if it is well intentioned and only aimed at their government it leads to racists using it as fuel for their hatred.
I'm not sure what the point of that post is or if it means anything, but just wanted to lay my thoughts out after I responded to one of your posts with a shocked emoji.
I would believe that most in here are in fact referring to the Chinese government and their comments have nothing to do with the people, Johnny. But I can see how frustrating it is to read. And the anti-asian racism that has come out of Covid has been beyond disheartening, so I don't blame anyone for despising anti-Chinese rhetoric. Even if it is well intentioned and only aimed at their government it leads to racists using it as fuel for their hatred.
This has been JohnnyB’s schtick for years.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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I decided yesterday to take some time away and reflect before writing more on this.
It was the post yesterday about how it would be lucky to have NATO go to war and crush China that prompted me to get involved in this thread because of how horrific an expression I found that to be. I still do. Reading that led to me picking out a small number of other things that had been written that I felt were also deserving of being challenged.
From there, maybe there’s some misunderstanding of where people are talking about China’s government and China as a country in its entirety. Maybe there’s also misunderstanding about the scope of what I was addressing, which was just the quotes I picked out and not the whole discussion. I was never intending to address the discussion as a whole.
Still, when someone writes something like:
I take that as not just being about the government. If someone were to say Canada is a #### hole country, or a ####ty country, or an awful horror show of a country, I don’t think most people would assume that was just about the Liberal government or Trudeau. Country and government aren’t synonymous. I interpret these as being about the country as whole, including not just the government, but the land, the people, the history, the culture etc. Taken as a whole including all of these aspects, despite the worst aspects of the country I think China is an amazing place. As a whole, it’s far from being a #### hole, or a ####ty country, or an awful horror show. I stand by that completely.
I specifically responded to these posts on the basis of feeling they were saying things in a way that was not just about the government but about the country as a whole. If any of these posts are explicitly about the government and not about the country as a whole, and the poster is willing to say that they don't actually think China as a whole is a ####hole, or ####ty, or an awful horror show, then I accept that poster’s intent was different than I interpreted it and I’ll certainly withdraw my criticism.
Regarding these posts that I picked out:
The first here actually is explicitly about the government, but it’s also a terrible mischaracterization. The Chinese leadership doesn’t act like Jihadists. That’s not the Chinese way of operating at all. When is the last time that someone waging a Jihad against a country wrote an op-ed advocating for economic cooperation with them? It’s just a total mischaracterization of Chinese leadership. So, I picked that out as ignorant. I also see it as an alarmist mischaracterization given post-9/11 history and fear associated with Jihadists as people intent on murdering you or your fellow citizens.
The second here I also see as fear mongering in suggesting a Chinese mass-casualty attack or an attack on infrastructure is something to be reasonably expected. I could be wrong, but I don’t see that as likely at all and I think it represents a weird interpretation of where China is at.
This quote I have already addressed, so I’ll just reiterate that suggesting it would be lucky for Canada to have NATO crush China in a war is an incredibly inhumane thing to suggest. A war like that would cost huge numbers of innocent lives. War is a fundamentally dehumanizing thing. To suggest that it would be lucky for something like this to happen is a terrible and inhuman expression. I don’t back down from my criticism of it.
This post I included because I also thought it was hyperbole and unreasonable. To suggest that going to these Olympics would be anything like on the same level as things like the residential school system (which is recognized as genocide), or the Japanese internment camps in BC, or eugenics in BC and Alberta etc. is just so unreasonable. Attending these Olympics would not be even close to these other low points in Canadian history. Maybe you disagree, but I would think the vast majority of Canadians would recognize the low points I’m referring to as not comparable to something like going to these Olympics.
For this one, the poster has said it was not meant seriously. I accept that. I took it as written seriously at the time, and it would be a pretty ridiculous betrayal of Canadian values if it were serious, but the poster says that it was not. I accept that.
A few other things I’ll reply to:
Again, read from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, or just read the history. Canada was clearly and definitively still engaging in genocide at that time. They certainly didn't teach me that when I was back in school either, but it is the case. What’s happening in China is different in scale to what happened in Canada, but not so different in nature or intent. The residential schools in Canada and the camps in China are similar in wanting to erase a culture and group of people through forced separation of families, elimination of language and culture and forced integration into the majority group; both also involving deaths, forced sterilizations, trauma and needless suffering as a result of mistreatment and abuse. The outcomes of both likely also being generations of irreparable harm and suffering.
And, I didn’t make that comparison for the purpose of minimizing what’s happening in China. It was about trying to help with understanding the point that a country, taken as a whole, is not just the worst things that it does. Victims of the residential school system could certainly be empathized with in feeling that Canada was an awful, horror show of a country. It was for them. But, that terrible side of Canada doesn’t adequately define the country as a whole. I take it most people who grew up in Canada back then didn’t consider Canada to be an awful place. Same thing with China. Something terrible can be happening without that being representative of the country as a whole. That's not saying it's not terrible and that nothing should be done to oppose it. It’s just saying that it doesn’t define the country in its entirety.
Nowhere, in any of my posts have I accused these posters of being racist. I called out posts on being ignorant, hateful towards the country, or disconnected from reality. I haven’t suggested racism anywhere in any of my previous posts, nor did I intend to. It’s not really what I’ve seen in this thread. If you’re bringing racism into it, that’s your own issue. I’m not accounting for why you in particular rush to a denial of racism when it hasn’t even been suggested.
Okay. I accept that. I hope you can also understand why I picked out the few quotes that I did on the basis of them seeming to target the whole country rather than the government and made no criticism of other posts clearly targeting the government unless they were something that I saw as pretty out there, alarmist, and disconnected from reality.
On the whole, I wasn’t intending to express that everyone posting in this thread was attacking China as a country in its entirety or the Chinese people. I recognize that most posts have been about how to deal with the Chinese government, and I haven’t criticized or attacked posts that I recognize as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB
Also,
I don’t know why you seem to think I should be accountable to you in any way. I’m not. Not in the least. I have expressed my views clearly on genocide here and I’ve expressed my views clearly about Hong Kong in other threads. I have been personally affected by these things and people close to me who I care about have been personally affected by these things. Your validation of my experiences and my views of China as a whole are completely unneeded and totally unimportant to me.
Comments like
Say more about the posters writing them than they do about me.
Beyond that, I'll also add that some posts, like the ones suggesting I have a gun to my head in Shanghai to say things in support of the government, or implying that Chinese people all live in fear of their government, I think somewhat encourage a fearful, paranoid view of China. Regardless of innocent or positive intent of these kinds of posts, it’s also the case that fear, paranoia and ignorance can easily fuel xenophobia and posts like that should at least be challenged or clarified to reach a more accurate understanding of the country people are talking about. Life in China is not life in North Korea.
The truth is that the large majority of people in China trust and support their government. The Communist Party, for all it’s problems, has played a huge part in lifting over 800 million people out of poverty, providing them with access to quality education and healthcare, and ensuring they have ample food to eat. In the 40 years since Deng Xiaoping began the process of transforming China's economic system, the country has gone from being an economically and technologically impoverished nation to being right on the verge of leading the world in both categories. Some minorities would certainly describe being oppressed, but no shortage of Chinese are living flourishing lives and lives that are far better than they were in the past. The trend in the last decade has also shown that more and more Chinese nationals who go abroad for education in places like Canada, Australia, the US and the UK are choosing to return to the Mainland to make their lives. Those people choosing to return wouldn’t be doing that if they were so fearful of the Communist Party and yearning to be free of the Party’s oppression. They’re returning because they feel it offers them a better quality of life. Loads of Canadians and Americans in China are also living happy and flourishing lives. People who have spent substantial time in China would know that.
None of that is an excuse for needless brutalities or human rights abuses, and there are plenty of other valid things that China could be criticized for, but these good sides are also realities of the complex picture that is the country as a whole. There's no need to deny them.
Wow, the best defense is a good offence, so props to you.
On the topic of residential schools I wonder how the 500,000 children ripped from their families by the Chinese government are enjoying their residential schools
the schools are also designed to assimilate and indoctrinate children at an early age, away from the influence of their families, according to the planning document, published in 2017. Students are often forced to enroll because the authorities have detained their parents and other relatives, ordered them to take jobs far from home or judged them unfit guardians.
The schools are off limits to outsiders and tightly guarded, and it is difficult to interview residents in Xinjiang without putting them at risk of arrest. But a troubling picture of these institutions emerges from interviews with Uighur parents living in exile and a review of documents published online, including procurement records, government notices, state media reports and the blogs of teachers in the schools.
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Pretty cherrypicky to say 800 million people were pulled out of poverty when the country was pummeled first. The argument cannot simply start from the 80s. That's like saying I burned the house to the ground and conditions are now improved because it is now a hut. Sure the Chinese are resilient and have taken advantage of what their government offers but there is so much to unpack how China has turned from Communist to Fascist if we really want to get into it.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
I would believe that most in here are in fact referring to the Chinese government and their comments have nothing to do with the people, Johnny. But I can see how frustrating it is to read. And the anti-asian racism that has come out of Covid has been beyond disheartening, so I don't blame anyone for despising anti-Chinese rhetoric. Even if it is well intentioned and only aimed at their government it leads to racists using it as fuel for their hatred.
I'm not sure what the point of that post is or if it means anything, but just wanted to lay my thoughts out after I responded to one of your posts with a shocked emoji.
I don’t buy that, at all.
Is condemning Myanmar regarding the treatment of Rohingya fuelling anti-Asian hatred?
Is siding with Palestine regarding Israeli aggressions fuelling anti-Semite hatred?
Is perpetually talking about the #### show to the south fuelling anti-American hatred?
I don’t get it. Sounds like a great way to deflect. “You just don’t understand. Because your racist.” What a world.
On the broad painting brush: Johnny says many Chinese support the government, and aren’t fearful of them. So ‘many’ Chinese nationals support a government that has for several years been proven to be systemically raping, sterilizing and arbitrarily imprisoning millions of their own.
Honest question, is this because the very government that must not be so bad that they have the support of ‘many’ Chinese is actually using propaganda to lie to their citizens?
Or are there ‘many’ who are not fearful, are well informed, and still support their government while it carries out incredibly large scale and long term brutal abuses? Because if it’s the later, you’re ####ing right I have an issue with those ‘many’ Chinese, and it has absolutely nothing to do with their nationality.
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No, no…I’m not sloppy, or lazy. This is a sign of the boredom.
The Chinese citizenry will remain quiescent in its government’s authoritarian ways so long as their economic fortunes and living standards continue to improve. If the economy tanks, all bets are off. Which is why many of the well-heeled (including Communist party officials) have bolt-holes in Western countries as security.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Or are there ‘many’ who are not fearful, are well informed, and still support their government while it carries out incredibly large scale and long term brutal abuses? Because if it’s the later, you’re ####ing right I have an issue with those ‘many’ Chinese, and it has absolutely nothing to do with their nationality.
This one is complicated... like all issues of this nature.
On a very, very surface level:
Propaganda game is strong in China. They don't have access to a bajillion sources like we do. If the 'media' there says something is false or not happening, then it must be true. Also, a huge proportion of the population there are uneducated.
Fear game is also very strong in China. Wanna speak out? Check out what's happening (and what has happened) in Hong Kong. They've tried (also during various points of history). People are afraid. Afraid to lose their lives, livelihoods, families, etc...
