Brad Treliving needs to go

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Which will plummet their value even more than what it is now. The Flames have a terrible habit of holding on to assets till its value basically bottoms out. The organization seems to have a philosophy that virtually involves no risk and you can't build a winner like that.

If Sutter can get all these guys to elevate their game and replenish their value and stock around the league, management should be smart enough to assess and determine who to keep and who to move while stock is high, they've had the same core long enough to understand everything you need to know about each player.

If Backlund gets it going move him, if Monahan gets it going move him, if Giordano gets it going move him, etc. Obviously easier said than done but thats the only way to retool on the fly if the organization is hell bent on not going through a rebuild.

You mean like PLD sulking under Torts plummeted his value? Netting that measly return from Winnipeg..

I think you underestimate the market for a Monahan/Tkachuk/Gaudreau even if one doesn't mesh with Sutter.

There will always be teams that see the problem as a needed change of scenery and think that they can be the destination for that.

I agree that you can't build a winner with a no risk approach. I want the GM to take more risks in the form of lateral moves.

Tearing down isn't necessarily the one and only avenue when a group of players isn't clicking.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Senators don't like to pay big money to players. The reality is that a few years down the road once they negotiate with Brady they will probably shop him once they see his demands so why would they be interested in Matthew at $9 million a season and a year away from asking for that kind of money over 8 years?

This may be true.

Or maybe they are actually shrewd enough to not throw money at post-apex players? Or that they set a price they are willing to pay and won’t budge?

Seems like they were willing to play ball with Stone, which makes sense compared to EK or Hoffman. Melnyk is a clown, but OTT has done a decent job of reading their tea leaves and playing the hand they have...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

You mean like PLD sulking under Torts plummeted his value? Netting that measly return from Winnipeg..

I think you underestimate the market for a Monahan/Tkachuk/Gaudreau even if one doesn't mesh with Sutter.

There will always be teams that see the problem as a needed change of scenery and think that they can be the destination for that.

I agree that you can't build a winner with a no risk approach. I want the GM to take more risks in the form of lateral moves.

Tearing down isn't necessarily the one and only avenue when a group if players isn't clicking.

How is this remotely the same thing? PLD is coming off a playoff where he was an absolutely beast, he was down right dominant if you watched Columbus. His value was probably at an all time high despite a rift with a coach. Trading for a guy who is under performing on the ice is vastly different than trading for a guy who has a rift with a coach, value wise.

In terms of value, Monahan is sinking fast, Tkachuk I still think has good value, JG the best of the 3. In contrast the value for these 3 is probably at an all time low.

I never said tearing it down is the only way when a group of players isn't clicking. In fact I said the complete opposite, management has a large enough sample size to know what they have in each player, so hopefully if certain guys start to play well, BT can capitalize and get a team to pay a premium.

I don't disagree that their would be a market for the Flames core, I'm speaking in regards to their value.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CGY12

How is this remotely the same thing? PLD is coming off a playoff where he was an absolutely beast, he was down right dominant if you watched Columbus. His value was probably at an all time high despite a rift with a coach. Trading for a guy who is under performing on the ice is vastly different than trading for a guy who has a rift with a coach, value wise.

Is it actually? Prove it.

In terms of value, Monahan is sinking fast, Tkachuk I still think has good value, JG the best of the 3. In contrast the value for these 3 is probably at an all time low.

Prove this as well, while you are at it.

I never said tearing it down is the only way when a group of players isn't clicking. In fact I said the complete opposite, management has a large enough sample size to know what they have in each player, so hopefully if certain guys start to play well, BT can capitalize and get a team to pay a premium.

I don't disagree that their would be a market for the Flames core, I'm speaking in regards to their value.

Which in the end is not really something that fans are any good at gauging; this is why we are so often surprised by the return on deals for players we deem as terrible or amazing.

[CliffFletcher]

Mathew and Brady both play LW. Stutzle is currently playing LW too, and it’s not a sure thing that he’ll make the switch to C. From a roster standpoint, it makes no sense for Ottawa to trade for Matthew.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This may be true.

Or maybe they are actually shrewd enough to not throw money at post-apex players? Or that they set a price they are willing to pay and won’t budge?

Seems like they were willing to play ball with Stone, which makes sense compared to EK or Hoffman. Melnyk is a clown, but OTT has done a decent job of reading their tea leaves and playing the hand they have...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Really? I'm not sure Ottawa is the blueprint any team would want to follow as it's simply the mouse wheel of continual rebuilding as they will not commit long term to their best players. There is zero indication that Melnyk is committed to winning.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really? I'm not sure Ottawa is the blueprint any team would want to follow as it's simply the mouse wheel of continual rebuilding as they will not commit long term to their best players. There is zero indication that Melnyk is committed to winning.

And yet the Senators have won more playoff rounds in the last decade than any other Canadian franchise. If that’s failure, what do we call the Flames record?

I know it’s a different sport, but the Patriots have done pretty well taking an unsentimental approach to asset management and veteran players.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet the Senators have won more playoff rounds in the last decade than any other Canadian franchise. If that’s failure, what do we call the Flames record?

I know it’s a different sport, but the Patriots have done pretty well taking an unsentimental approach to asset management and veteran players.

a lot easier to do that when you can just cut a guy and owe him nothing.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Is it actually? Prove it.


Prove this as well, while you are at it.


Which in the end is not really something that fans are any good at gauging; this is why we are so often surprised by the return on deals for players we deem as terrible or amazing.

So if fans aren't any good at gauging, then the same can be applied to you're side of the argument? Of course we aren't in the trenches making the phone calls but it doesn't take genius to understand that none of Monahan, JG or Tkachuk are playing at a high level and the playoff failures the last 5 years would indeed hurt their value.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CGY12

So if fans aren't any good at gauging, then the same can be applied to you're side of the argument?

Yes.

Of course we aren't in the trenches making the phone calls but it doesn't take genius to understand that none of Monahan, JG or Tkachuk are playing at a high level and the playoff failures the last 5 years would indeed hurt their value.

It probably does, but I would bet that it wouldn't by much.

[blender]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I agree with you in principle.

Another way to state my opinion is that Matt Tkachuk doesn't seem to fit the trajectory Ottawa is on. I don't think they would have interest in Matt Tkachuk, or at least not at that cost.

Nor do I think the Flames would want to move Tkachuk for a entry level player. The message seems to be quite clear from the Flames end, they want to compete. Trading, arguably, their best winger who is only 23 doesn't make sense.

At the end of the day, I don't think either team would want that trade, specifically.

I think those are fair points for sure.
If it wasn't for the fact that getting the Tkachuk brothers together might be very desirable, I agree that Ottawa probably isn't interested.

[blender]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Mathew and Brady both play LW. Stutzle is currently playing LW too, and it’s not a sure thing that he’ll make the switch to C. From a roster standpoint, it makes no sense for Ottawa to trade for Matthew.

Just to clarify, No one is talking about Ottawa trading for Matthew now or in the future.

I was speculating that there could have been an appetite for Ottawa to trade a 1st round pick for Matthew at last years draft.

Several posters have made valid arguments as to why they feel this was unlikely.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yes.


It probably does, but I would bet that it wouldn't by much.

My original post talking about value was in response to if these guys can't individually turn it around under Sutter, that it would hurt their value even further than what it is now. I think we can both agree to that?

Also of the 3 players you mentioned I stated in my last post that I still think JG has high value, Tkachuk has good value, but Monahan has probably taken the biggest hit of the 3, so I don't necessarily disagree with you when you say not by that much when it comes to 2 of the 3 players.

I hope the core turns it around and starts to elevate their game so that at least when management is assessing options, they can consider those while value is higher than what it has been.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CGY12

My original post talking about value was in response to if these guys can't individually turn it around under Sutter, that it would hurt their value even further than what it is now. I think we can both agree to that?

Also of the 3 players you mentioned I stated in my last post that I still think JG has high value, Tkachuk has good value, but Monahan has probably taken the biggest hit of the 3, so I don't necessarily disagree with you when you say not by that much when it comes to 2 of the 3 players.

I hope the core turns it around and starts to elevate their game so that at least when management is assessing options, they can consider those while value is higher than what it has been.

The big fear with each of those three is that we’ve seen their peaks. The other issue is going to be what kind of team would want any of those players and what the return would therefore be. I think each of them would be cast in a secondary role on a contender looking to complement their team. A Kessel or Gaborik.

As for their value versus each other, Monahan has taken a huge hit in GPG, especially 5 on 5, but not PPG. And he’s a centre, and while it’s a low bar, his defensive play is probably better than either other guy. His contract is the best out of them as well. 2 more years after this one and his NTC is better than Gaudreau’s. Gaudreau has only 1 year, with a worse NTC and Tkachuk is one year, with a high offer and arb rights. One thing on all 3, they’ve been paid $3.5 signing bonus so the cash salary is far less this year.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The big fear with each of those three is that we’ve seen their peaks. The other issue is going to be what kind of team would want any of those players and what the return would therefore be. I think each of them would be cast in a secondary role on a contender looking to complement their team. A Kessel or Gaborik.

As for their value versus each other, Monahan has taken a huge hit in GPG, especially 5 on 5, but not PPG. And he’s a centre, and while it’s a low bar, his defensive play is probably better than either other guy. His contract is the best out of them as well. 2 more years after this one and his NTC is better than Gaudreau’s. Gaudreau has only 1 year, with a worse NTC and Tkachuk is one year, with a high offer and arb rights. One thing on all 3, they’ve been paid $3.5 signing bonus so the cash salary is far less this year.

But unfortunately Monahan is a centre who plays like a winger. Agreed about the contract. Good point regarding Tkachuk and his arb rights, that could really hurt interest if they explore moving him, if he doesn't turn it around in a big big way.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really? I'm not sure Ottawa is the blueprint any team would want to follow as it's simply the mouse wheel of continual rebuilding as they will not commit long term to their best players. There is zero indication that Melnyk is committed to winning.

They had a cinderella run in '16-17, and then the wheels fell off the next year. It might be a little analogous to Flames '18-19 and beyond.


The Sens made tons of mistakes along the way (like trading Zibanejad, and then trading the farm for Duchene when they were 6-8). I'm not sure OTT deserves any credit, it's not clear that they were particularly intentional in how they went about their decisions, but ultimately they've ended up on the right path considering their circumstances (better late than never).


They are mostly incompetent, but their refusal to overpay long-term chasing false dreams has worked in their favour. They pushed a lot of chips in to chase their window while they thought it might be open, but also did a decent job of recovering assets from those mistakes.

Heading into '18-19

Karlsson 28 - 1UFA
Duchene 27 - 1UFA
Stone 26 - 1UFA (after a weird 1 yr deal)
Brassard 31 - 1UFA
Boedker 29 - 2UFA (bad Hoffman trade)
Bobby Ryan 31 - 4x7.25 remaining

Anderson - 37 - already extended for 2 more years

And more bad money tied up in bad and/or older players like MacArthur (LTIR) and Gaborik (became LTIR)


Promising young players:
Tkachuk
White
Chabot
L Brown
(maybe a few others...Hogberg in G)

Pageau, Dzingel, Ceci, Demelo, Tierney mid 20s


An okay, but old forward core (weak at C), sparse defence, and uncertain future in goal.


If they re-upped Karlsson and Stone they'd basically be Nashville/SJ right now.

Like I said, there is a strong argument for re-signing Stone (and aiming for a bit of a re-tool), though it's unlikely they'd be competitive before he turns 30 anyways. Selling off was absolutely the right move given their mess of a roster.

[GioforPM]

^^ You forgot Stutzle in their young players - probably the best of the bunch.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CGY12

So if fans aren't any good at gauging, then the same can be applied to you're side of the argument? Of course we aren't in the trenches making the phone calls but it doesn't take genius to understand that none of Monahan, JG or Tkachuk are playing at a high level and the playoff failures the last 5 years would indeed hurt their value.

You're right about Gaudreau's value being high still if everyone was bidding, unfortunately the ship has sailed to bring in the bids for a massive return. We really needed to trade him prior to this season.

Now you have a 5 team trade list that Johnny submits, then you have to hope that more than one of those teams actually has serious interest. Plus, one of those teams would now be picking up Johnny for just over a season before he hits UFA.

I see people talking about trading Gaudreau all the time but there is 3 grand canyons between now and last season (1.x years left and only 5 teams to talk to vs 2.x years left and 30 teams to talk to).

[jayswin]

When you break down a 5 team bidding war on a soon to be expired value contract you're looking at needing a team that is contending and at that point you will not be getting a another star player in return, you'll be getting picks and prospects.

It looks bleak to me. Who knows maybe a team on there thinks they can re-sign him and goes for a one for one star for star trade, but pretty slim, imo. I think Gaudreau is here for the duration of his contract now and off to a NE team in UFA. And to be honest I don't think I want Gaudreau at a full UFA contract for 7 or 8 years anyways.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^ You forgot Stutzle in their young players - probably the best of the bunch.

I was still talking about the situation in the 2018 off-season, when they could've extended their big names.

Basically my argument is that doing so would have guaranteed perpetual mediocrity/playoff bubble.

They really need Stutzle to pan out as a C; I think they'll need to re-tool some of their promising assets into even younger ones to really make it work.