2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Whats the alternative? Watch this team slowly fizzle out and in 5 years start the rebuild then with no assets? I don't see why we're delaying the inevitable when this group is barely a bubble team and the on ice product is atrocious.

How about opening the wallet up for a coach that has actually done something in the league? 10 of the last 11 coaches of this team have never worked as a NHL head coach again dating back to the year 2000. Hire mediocre coaches and get mediocre results.

I think we should all be convinced this is inevitable before making a drastic change that will impact this team for a decade+.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yes, lots of team would be interested in those players.

I don't see any teams that will take those players without sending cap back in the deal, that's my point.

Yeah I know, that's why I said you might have to take some salary back, but they have to be expiring deals or deals with a favourable buy-out. I acknowledge that there won't be much savings THIS season, but there could be considerable savings next season and the season after that which may coincide with reduced ticket revenue.

As the new arena, I was assuming it'll be 5 years before it is ready. Is it actually slated to be ready in 3? Either way, even if it is 3 years, at least you will the beginnings of a new core with young and exciting players. With the way things are going right now, Flames will be going into that new building at the beginning of a rebuild as opposed to on the way out.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, any team interested in these guys is one that’s a contender or close to being one, looking for that last piece. So they already have good players and probably expensive ones. Though because Treliving has done a good job on those contracts, except maybe Tkachuk, they are pretty attractive adds for a PO run. I’d add Backlund in for that reason. On a contender he’s a very useful add.

Tkachuk is a player that would interest almost every team with where they are in their cycle. A team that is trying to get out of the rebuild and move it forward would love to add a 23 year old top line player.

I think I would be more inclined to do a rebuild if Tkachuk would be part of it but I think he will want out if they tear it down

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Tkachuk is a player that would interest almost every team with where they are in their cycle. A team that is trying to get out of the rebuild and move it forward would love to add a 23 year old top line player.

I think I would be more inclined to do a rebuild if Tkachuk would be part of it but I think he will want out if they tear it down

Contract is an issue. I also think his skill set is limited. We may have seen the best he has.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Before doing a seismic change I would see what a new and competent coach would do with this group. I don’t think they have had one decent coach throughout their history.

I just don’t agree that a team that won 50 games 2 years ago is not competitive now despite a clear upgrade in goal. It is a good team who is playing terribly because there is some kind of divide in that room and they are being led poorly by the coach and captain

That 50 win team had career highs from multiple players and got their show run in the first round and never looked anything like that regular season again. This is not a competitive team.

We shouldn't cling to that like we clung to 04, it was an aberration.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Tkachuk is a player that would interest almost every team with where they are in their cycle. A team that is trying to get out of the rebuild and move it forward would love to add a 23 year old top line player.

I think I would be more inclined to do a rebuild if Tkachuk would be part of it but I think he will want out if they tear it down

I love Tkachuk as a player, but his lack of foot speed is really really scary. That's only going to get worse as he gets older. It's been painful this season watching a "less engaged" Tkachuk move around out there.

[868904]

Originally Posted by nik-

That 50 win team had career highs from multiple players and got their show run in the first round and never looked anything like that regular season again. This is not a competitive team.

We shouldn't cling to that like we clung to 04, it was an aberration.

The Lightning also "got their show run" that year in the playoffs. The thing is, they didn't change the way they played completely, they just added a physical element to their team.

Peters over-reacted going from the up tempo game to a defense oriented system, then when Ward took over, he took it even further and really got lucky from the new coach bump and a flukey playoff series win. Think about the series win against Winnipeg, the Jets lost their two best players and the Flames were led by Bennett-Lucic-Dube, a third line, and barely got any production from the top two lines.

I remember back to the 2018 season when the Flames and Lightning met in the regular season at the Dome. That was some amazing hockey and both coaches acknowledged it too. Cooper had a ton of great things to say about Peters and the Flames at that time. This team/core was at its peak potential at that time. It was Peters job to get them back there, he couldn't, but it doesn't mean that this team/core doesn't have it in them.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nik-

That 50 win team had career highs from multiple players and got their show run in the first round and never looked anything like that regular season again. This is not a competitive team.

We shouldn't cling to that like we clung to 04, it was an aberration.

Just glancing at the game log, that edition feasted on weak teams. When they played TB, WA, STL, it didn’t turn out well.

The Avs were a team that, from mid March to the POs starting, were on a huge run. So that was less than ideal.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by 868904

The Lightning also "got their show run" that year in the playoffs. The thing is, they didn't change the way they played completely, they just added a physical element to their team.

Peters over-reacted going from the up tempo game to a defense oriented system, then when Ward took over, he took it even further and really got lucky from the new coach bump and a flukey playoff series win. Think about the series win against Winnipeg, the Jets lost their two best players and the Flames were led by Bennett-Lucic-Dube, a third line, and barely got any production from the top two lines.

I remember back to the 2018 season when the Flames and Lightning met in the regular season at the Dome. That was some amazing hockey and both coaches acknowledged it too. Cooper had a ton of great things to say about Peters and the Flames at that time. This team/core was at its peak potential at that time. It was Peters job to get them back there, he couldn't, but it doesn't mean that this team/core doesn't have it in them.

Haha, what are you implying here? We're capable of having a Lightning like bounceback with just some tweaks? That's delusional.

The only correlation is a bad loss in the first round, other than that these teams are not comparable at all.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

How about opening the wallet up for a coach that has actually done something in the league? 10 of the last 11 coaches of this team have never worked as a NHL head coach again dating back to the year 2000. Hire mediocre coaches and get mediocre results.

I think we should all be convinced this is inevitable before making a drastic change that will impact this team for a decade+.

That's just way too easy. A well regarded, high end coach still isn't polishing this turd into gold at this point. Maybe we're talking playoff team this year, but definitely not challenging for a title - which is where the Flames should be 7 years into Brad Treliving's "stay the course", "trust the process" genius master plan.

Treliving is an epic bust in my opinion. He's a guy who made some ballsy big splash moves early on, that appeared to be well guided and effective, but then negated much of it with poor FA signings and rock bottom goaltending and coaching evaluations that have really resulted in this team completely missing their window.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Treliving is an epic bust in my opinion. He's a guy who made some ballsy big splash moves early on, that appeared to be well guided and effective, but then negated much of it with poor FA signings and rock bottom goaltending and coaching evaluations that have really resulted in this team completely missing their window.

He's the Sam Bennett of GMs!

[SportsJunky]

Looking at Dom's projections https://theathletic.com/2318775/2021...ted-standings/ at The Athletic, he is giving the Flames a 43% chance to make the playoffs. IF Tre is serious about making the postseason, and I'm not sure that he is at this point, maybe he looks at dealing with Van (3%) or Ottawa (0%).
I still believe Nashville, with a 7% chance is the club to focus on. Ekholm is the #1 rated "get" on their trade board. Calgary's shots against and goals against would instantly drop with Ekholm in the mix.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

That's just way too easy. A well regarded, high end coach still isn't polishing this turd into gold at this point. Maybe we're talking playoff team this year, but definitely not challenging for a title - which is where the Flames should be 7 years into Brad Treliving's "stay the course", "trust the process" genius master plan.

This is my issue with the coaching discussion. I still feel like a lot of posters overvalue the players (or at least some of them) and think that a coach will suddenly unleash the eliteness in them. Whereas I think that many of the top players are talented but most have significant flaws that make them easier to defend than true elite players. The most well rounded player is Lindholm and he’s just not skilled at the level of the other top 4 guys. The other three have individual challenges - Gaudreau with size and his top speed can’t turn a defender, Monahan slow and not a tremendous stick handler, and Tkachuk being not just slow, but actually a bad skater.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don’t get how this team is going to tear it down and build it up to be competitive again in 3 years?

If people want to go full rebuild then be ready to give the organization 5 years before you have any real expectations for the team.

It doesn't have to be competitive again in 3 years. IT just needs to be on the right path in 3 years, with reason for optimism.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is my issue with the coaching discussion. I still feel like a lot of posters overvalue the players (or at least some of them) and think that a coach will suddenly unleash the eliteness in them. Whereas I think that many of the top players are talented but most have significant flaws that make them easier to defend than true elite players. The most well rounded player is Lindholm and he’s just not skilled at the level of the other top 4 guys. The other three have individual challenges - Gaudreau with size and his top speed can’t turn a defender, Monahan slow and not a tremendous stick handler, and Tkachuk being not just slow, but actually a bad skater.

Yeah, for me it isn't a "this" or "that" conversation.

It's:

- Sean Monahan isn't a #1 centre, neither is Elias Lindholm. So you can't meaningfully improve without addressing that hole
- Mark Giordano, Mikael Backlund have both established themselves as not being able to lead this team to the proper level. We need to change our leadership group
- As of today, we lack a #1 and #2 defenceman. Valimaki and Andersson may be able to fill those holes, so I'm not all that worried about next year and beyond, but this season it's a problem. This year is a development year for those two in my eyes.
- Geoff Ward is the worst coach in the entire league

So, in order to get this team to the next level I think the adjustments are:

1. Need a top-end #1 centre
2. Need a significantly better coach
3. Need to re-shape the leadership of this group. Not sure how one goes about doing that, but it needs to be done.

Oh, and overall depth needs to improve. We need Gawdin/Ruzicka/Phillips/Dube to step into the NHL and actually be meaningful, contributing NHL players because the rubbish we're tossing around now is not good enough.

...but how the hell do you address #1? How do you get a top-end #1 centre? If trade key pieces like Gaudreau, well we just opened a huge friggin' hole that we then have to back-fill.

It all cycles back to Jack Eichel in my eyes. There's also noise around Aleksander Barkov maybe being available due to extension issues (LeBrun speculated this at the start of the season)...but in going after a player at this level, the only key roster player we can afford to lose Monahan (if Lindholm is transitioning to #2 centre) or Backlund (...who likely holds almost no value). So is anyone open to trading their #1 centre for a WHOLE bunch of futures (picks and prospects)? Seems like a tough thing to pull off, but it is necessary in my eyes - and if you can't do it, then it's rebuild time.

[timbit]

I know. It’s a little repetitive.

When your best players are better than the opposition’s best players , your team will win minimally, 80-85 % of the time ...and vice versa. That why they get the big bucks.

The Flames record up to this point, verifies that IMO.

The lower line(s) , 3rd D pairing and 2nd goalie are there to limit goals against , help maintain tempo, and help chip in with some secondary offence.

However, they are 85-90 percent of the time, not the positive difference makers.

Go back and review the games, the Flames best players have not been good enough in 50-60 % of the games.

For the 40-50% of the time they have been better , the Flames have won!

IMO, a huge part of the poor start and record lies on their shoulders.

Consistent winning starts there. They need to be consistently better. A lot f’n better.

We can ramble on and there are some valid coaching questions being asked...but in the end, as we’ve ( I’ve) seen, the best players commitment to best play their best decides wins and losses.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by 868904

The Lightning also "got their show run" that year in the playoffs. The thing is, they didn't change the way they played completely, they just added a physical element to their team.

The 4 years before the sweep by the BJs (after a record setting regular season):

Lost Game 7 of ECF against Caps (cup champs)
Missed Playoffs (by 1 pt)
Lost Game 7 of ECF against Pens (cup champs)
Lost Game 6 of SCF against Blackhawks (cup champs)


Ya...they might have had a reason to stay the course.


The Blues won several rounds in the years preceding their cup.

In the 10 seasons before their cup, the Caps missed the playoffs once, but otherwise always made it to Game 7 of round 1 or later.

We are nothing like them.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

That's just way too easy. A well regarded, high end coach still isn't polishing this turd into gold at this point. Maybe we're talking playoff team this year, but definitely not challenging for a title - which is where the Flames should be 7 years into Brad Treliving's "stay the course", "trust the process" genius master plan.

Treliving is an epic bust in my opinion. He's a guy who made some ballsy big splash moves early on, that appeared to be well guided and effective, but then negated much of it with poor FA signings and rock bottom goaltending and coaching evaluations that have really resulted in this team completely missing their window.

I think you have unrealistic expectations for this franchise. I think they are expectations that fans should be hoping for but if you call Treliving an epic bust you have no clue. Chiarelli in Edmonton was a huge bust. Tim Murray was an epic bust. We could easily go the rebuild route and to quote another Flames GM “wander the dessert”

Anyone that has expectations that a team should go from the bottom to the top in 5 years is just not realistic.

Poor UFA signings? Calgary is a crap market for free agents. Many people really fail to understand this.

Rock bottom goaltending? That happened in one year but it has been average every other year.

Too many posters give Treliving crap for not finding an elite goalie until recently. Do people assume adding a stud goalie is easy or something?

How many 5 year rebuilds result in a team becoming a perennial contender?

[GioforPM]

Does anyone think that Treliving, given Edmonton’s draft picks, would have constructed as a bad a team?

If you draft middle of the pack every year, you get missed of the pack players. Unless you can strike gold (but lost of team have one of those miracle draftees), or if you are in a place to attract top UFAs.

I agree that a top C is a large part of the missing puzzle. It’s pretty hard to draft one, even harder to trade for one, and they are practically never available as a UFA. I don’t think Tavares goes UFA without Toronto hanging around.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Does anyone think that Treliving, given Edmonton’s draft picks, would have constructed as a bad a team?

If you draft middle of the pack every year, you get missed of the pack players. Unless you can strike gold (but lost of team have one of those miracle draftees), or if you are in a place to attract top UFAs.

I agree that a top C is a large part of the missing puzzle. It’s pretty hard to draft one, even harder to trade for one, and they are practically never available as a UFA. I don’t think Tavares goes UFA without Toronto hanging around.

Yeah, this is exactly it.

Until we fill that position though, what are we doing? Just wasting seasons after seasons after seasons.

This team needs the foundational pieces in place.

Goaltending: Nailed it for the next half-decade.
Defence: Valimaki and Andersson are a good basis. If Hanifin is here long-term, I believe in that top-3.
Wingers: Solid.

Centre: Abysmal. We just don't have the top guy, and if you don't have that guy you aren't winning anything.

If we can't fix the centre position, everything else is irrelevant. Including the horrible head coach. Without that centre position fixed, without the leadership group fixed, even an elite coach won't win anything meaningful here.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't fix the coaching position though...