Brad Treliving needs to go

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Treliving did a lot of this to himself though and overall I actually like Treliving as a GM, and think he did a lot of good. But also think it might be time for a new voice in the organization.
Snipped

Death by 1000 minor trades.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Fundamentally, Treliving had a pretty good situation to walk in to, but not nearly as good as it should have been. Feaster bungled every major sell-off and got absolutely nothing for the best players of the Iginla era.
Overlaying the Treliving performance is the fact that our owners lack patience and I am sure there was a lot of pressure behind the scenes to "make the playoffs", especially on heels of Hartley's surprise year.
Treliving drafted (or at least oversaw drafting) well, though crucially missed completely on the highest pick (I do not know if anything could have been done about that). He sold well when he was selling and he started off trading really well - the Hamilton trade tree was very good, especially considering that we got the best of Ferland before he became unplayable. But, basically, everything after the Hamilton to CAR trade has been downhill. Wasting so many decent picks (especially considering how well we have drafted in those rounds) on garbage every deadline, wasting of more picks to pick up spares (Lazar, Smith, etc), culminating with the absolutely inexcusable Hamonic trade (do we have pro scouts and advanced stats analysts?). So many wasted assets for ZERO (kind of the mirror image of Feaster selling our stars). I don't even blame him for the trades that didn't close - **** happens.
The FA signings - more horror (do we have pro scouts and advanced stats analysts?), though Markstrom and Tanev look good THIS season.
The coaches... nothing to add there. The horror, the horror.
Finally, management of organizations and human resources - he has allowed employees way too much leeway and has failed to identify (how could you?), or, rather more likely, to excise the "bad apples"...

Verdict: TERMINATE.

While I don't agree with the verdict - this is a well balanced take.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If they aren't playing to their full potential, or giving it 100% it's because they are trying to send a message about something or are unhappy about a direction the org has taken.

I don't think this is the case - but if it is - it's even more damning of the players.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think this is the case - but if it is - it's even more damning of the players.

Is it? Or is it human nature across any industry?

My wording wasn't the best in that I don't think it's an intentional sabotage by the players but if you hate your boss, or if you hate what your boss is asking you to do, then generally an employee isn't as engaged and don't give as much effort.

Usually when a group of guys see a dip in performance and confidence simultaneously (and really at this point it seems to pretty much be the entire roster with "effort" issues) it means that there is something going on behind the scenes causing the team to not be as engaged in what's happening.

That's what Treliving needs to figure out how to fix.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Or it's a group that has already shown they are easy to knock off their game and doesn't show up in big moments or big games.
That dynamic isn't new.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

While I don't agree with the verdict - this is a well balanced take.

Thanks, but what do you think will allow him to be a palatable choice to continue - do you think:

1) he will learn and stop wasting good picks on garbage at the deadline and on "filler"?

2) that he (the organization) will actually learn how to pro scout and/or use statistical analysis to identify "bargains" or "lemons" on other teams?

3) that our coach selection will improve?

4) he will be better at assessing employee dynamics?

I appreciate that Fletcher got almost a decade to practice in anonymity and had pretty terrible results in Atlanta and we got the benefit of that experience. Sadly, that almost never happens in the "immediate gratification" world of today. Why do you think Treliving would be better going forward?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's all just a matter of what one's perspective is and presenting the information to fit that.
One could argue that BT received an organization with
- A lack of high end prospects
- A lack of elite talent
- Deficiency overall in the asset base of the franchise

He had a better situation relative to other Flames GMs coming in - but relative to what other new GMs around the league walk into - it was a poor state of affairs.

The lack of assets in this franchise is nothing new. It's decades old. And Feaster made it worse by not extracting any value of his core.

He was a new GM!! Of course he didn't inherit a young team with elite talent, high end prospects and oodles of cap space. Those GM's don't get replaced.

Which Canadian team GM inherited a better situation? I assume you're saying the majority of GM's inherited a better situation based on the bolded, but I'd say Dubas is the only one . And I'd argue that's an unusual situation.

[blender]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. Note to self - seek out psychiatrist on recommendation of guy on internet named after soft drink

Right

So it’s a wee bit of hyperbole

Doesn’t matter what Feaster did before so much as the situation he left. He could have left better assets but he left what he left

Importantly in the cap world - no cap issues, no horrid contracts that needed to be dumped, tons of space!

As far as roster players, good young F core pieces, some really solid top D, culture reset and good work ethic.

It’s not the very top dream that probably involves Crosby, but yeah, it’s dream enough.

Lots of GMs are brought to clean up things. All he has to do was use his abundance of cap space and good pieces and build

Good points, but the dreamiess of the situation is tempered by the reality of small market, bad weather/geography location, undesirable for UFAs, etc.
ETA: Worst arena in the league, etc.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

He was a new GM!! Of course he didn't inherit a young team with elite talent, high end prospects and oodles of cap space. Those GM's don't get replaced.

Which Canadian team GM inherited a better situation? I assume you're saying the majority of GM's inherited a better situation based on the bolded, but I'd say Dubas is the only one . And I'd argue that's an unusual situation.

Canadian team GM? Dubas. But Buffalo is close to Canada and Botteril had better young talent prospects and oodles of cap space.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. Note to self - seek out psychiatrist on recommendation of guy on internet named after soft drink

Right

So it’s a wee bit of hyperbole

Doesn’t matter what Feaster did before so much as the situation he left. He could have left better assets but he left what he left

Importantly in the cap world - no cap issues, no horrid contracts that needed to be dumped, tons of space!

As far as roster players, good young F core pieces, some really solid top D, culture reset and good work ethic.

It’s not the very top dream that probably involves Crosby, but yeah, it’s dream enough.

Lots of GMs are brought to clean up things. All he has to do was use his abundance of cap space and good pieces and build

lol alright "in their right mind" might be hyperbole as well, but I won't have you mocking my username, you're named after lip hair!

I think cap space and a few good pieces was all he had. There was no abundance. Feaster didn't really do anything that had a negative impact on the future (awful contracts, cap team, etc) but he also didn't do anything positive outside of get rid of contract. He didn't replace them with things that would help later outside of cap space.

An abundance of good pieces is just over the top, I think. There were 5-6 good players, total. Everything else was average or worse, whether that be because of the contracts, the quality of play, whatever.

Not that it really matters either way. Good situation, bad situation, 7 years is enough time to make something of either one. And I think he has, I just think it's not enough. Whether that means he stays and shakes up the core, or he gets fired and someone else comes in, at this point I'm just poking the dead horse and asking it to do something.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by blender

Good points, but the dreamiess of the situation is tempered by the reality of small market, bad weather/geography location, undesirable for UFAs, etc.
ETA: Worst arena in the league, etc.

Has Calgary really struggled attracting free agents?

Brouwer
Neal
Markstrom

Sure we paid free agent prices for them but who doesn’t?

I can’t think of a free agent who has stiffed calgary in the last five years that has taken a sizeable discount to play somewhere where it did not make sense (be it money, history, chance to win, original or childhood team)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Has Calgary really struggled attracting free agents?

Brouwer
Neal
Markstrom

Sure we paid free agent prices for them but who doesn’t?

I can’t think of a free agent who has stiffed calgary in the last five years that has taken a sizeable discount to play somewhere where it did not make sense (be it money, history, chance to win, original or childhood team)

Well, money is a huge thing on that list and Canadian teams (as well as teams in higher tax states) have a disadvantage. Calgary v. Vegas on Stone’s contract would have cost an extra $1.5M I estimate.

[atb]

What worries me is if BT goes, will a new GM be willing to come in and trade a core piece as their first deal? There's some high expectations on what we should get back in a Gaudreau/Monahan trade, have to think it'd be a bit daunting to make a tenure defining trade in your first 6 months on the job (assuming a trade happens in the offseason).

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

He was a new GM!! Of course he didn't inherit a young team with elite talent, high end prospects and oodles of cap space. Those GM's don't get replaced.

Which Canadian team GM inherited a better situation? I assume you're saying the majority of GM's inherited a better situation based on the bolded, but I'd say Dubas is the only one . And I'd argue that's an unusual situation.

Dubas officially or unofficially? After Burke got the boot, Nonis camped out for a year and a bit and IIRC didn't make any major moves aside from off-loading big contracts/vets with no future in a rebuild. Lamoriello took over with Dubas as the AGM, with rumors early on that Dubas was being groomed all along. And if I remember it was a GM by committee with Lamoriello, Dubas and Mark Hunter making decisions as a committee. So the entire team from 2015 worked to draft and move out players who wouldn't be with them for the current push. Guys who were overrated weren't signed at their peak, or for potential - instead they were traded or let walk to other organizations in free agency. Dubas didn't inherit much - he was actually part of most of those moves leading up to him being GM.

[ComixZone]

GF/G:

25. Rangers
26. Coyotes
27. Flames
28. Predators
29. Sabres
30. Red Wings
31. Ducks

Look at the teams they're around on that.

Ducks - openly rebuilding
Red Wings - openly tanking
Sabres - an absolute dumpster fire
Predators - they were competitive for a long time, this is the end of that for them
Coyotes - an absolute calamity
Rangers - openly rebuilding

That's the quality of this Flames team. Not by design, but rather through incredible levels of incompetence.

GA/G

22. Flames
23. Predators
24. Blues
25. Capitals
26. Red Wings
27. Penguins
28. Blue Jackets
29. Canucks
30. Sharks
31. Senators

We have the best goaltending in that list, yet there we are.

Our awfulness/mediocrity is visible in almost every stat.

Shots/G: 22nd
Shots against/G: 21st
FOW%: 16th
Net-PK: 19th
Net-PP: 18th
ROW: 17th
P%: 21st


This team is a disaster. The manager, the coach, the roster. It is a full on disaster and most of the blame falls on the GM. He's had 7 years to build this:



It's fair to say he's the best GM we've had in...30 or whatever years, but that doesn't mean he's any good as the results would say he is definitely just "more of the same".

[bluejays]

I wonder if Bennett is dealt to Pittsburgh, with Burke being such a "fan" of his. I thought Bennett would respond better to his stints on the top lines but he's been a little aloof and seems to have been lost in his development years. Anyway, I think ultimately someone gives 2 2nd rounders and calls it a day.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Canadian team GM? Dubas. But Buffalo is close to Canada and Botteril had better young talent prospects and oodles of cap space.

And Botterill was fired. Dubas was more of a succession than a new hire.

So IMO the point stands, there are few examples of new GM’s inheriting a better situation. Jiri has admitted to being a Treliving apologist so it’s an empty debate I suppose.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

And Botterill was fired. Dubas was more of a succession than a new hire.

So IMO the point stands, there are few examples of new GM’s inheriting a better situation. Jiri has admitted to being a Treliving apologist so it’s an empty debate I suppose.

You have a lovely habit of throwing people's words back at them. I was trying to be humorous when I said that while admitting to the flaws we all carry. We are all biased in our own ways.

Doesn't mean it's an empty debate.

But your pattern is to take what I say and minimize it.
Not something I'm interested in continuing. Except to say this franchise is one of the most asset poor organizations in the entire league and that was the case when BT cames in which creates the dynamic of robbing from the future to pay the present.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I agree with Moustache in that Treliving walked into a really good 'dream job' of sorts.



1) Cap space. Not having to dump contracts and find enough wiggle room is a big deal. Half the pressure is trying not to look bad in getting value if your ownership group mandates that you cut costs. Treliving didn't have to do any of that. Feaster did a god-awful job at it with the Regehr (wasn't cutting salary, but making room for the luckily-failed Brad Richards offer), Iginla and Bouwmeester contracts, which played a huge part in his dismissal. There were no bad deals, no mandate from his bosses to save money, nothing of the sort. That's a huge stress relief.


2) He came in as a 'GM in training'. Burke insulated him. While that might not sound great for an experienced GM, having someone really experienced in that role as a mentor can be extremely helpful, no? Imagine if Darryl Sutter had a mentor to lean on and stop himself from making the worst mistakes. After all, it was Sutter's first (and last) crack at GM duties too.


3) No, this team was not a young team poised to win the cup. Absolutely not. However, there was some really nice pieces (including Bennett who was selected shortly after his hire). Though some pieces didn't work out, Poirier was a very good prospect, Klimchuk was an 'Eberle-light', great looking goalie prospects, etc., etc. Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, Giordano, Backlund, Hudler (who was fricken amazing for the most part on the Flames during that time), a Wideman that would play huge minutes that same season and did it well for a long time (he was great that year, including on defence miraculously!)... there were a lot of decent pieces on that squad. Lots didn't end up working out, but maybe that's partly on the organization as well. It is hard to say how much responsibility an organization has when a prospect didn't work out. For instance, in Porier's case, did they have a sit-down with him and address his issues, or did they just more or less ignore them? I don't know the answer to that (I hope they did). Point is, they did have some very solid pieces there.


4) Absolutely no pressure! Flames just entered the rebuild. They weren't coming out of one. There was no rush to trade anyone. There was no rush to turn this team into a cup winner. We loved that 1st year of the rebuild, even if we finished in the bottom 4. It was digestible. It was entertaining. It gave us hope. It was ok finishing 4th worst that year. Nobody was complaining (and if you were, you were unreasonably impatient).



Flames went and became a playoff team in Brad's first year. That team stepped up. Players were stepping up all over the place. This team didn't know the meaning of quit. Hard working team, fun to watch team, were lauded everywhere they played - what GM doesn't want to enter a market like this?


Most GMs don't enter a situation like this. They usually enter a team that has failed to meet expectations - usually on the downturn of their cycle, and they are usually saddled with long and ugly contracts that are hard to move, but must be moved. They are 'selling' - selling both the players to other teams, and the idea of a rebuild to the fans.



If not the situation above, then usually they enter a high-pressure environment where they are trying to win, but maybe don't have enough pieces. That's a tonne of pressure where the GM has to jump in and figure out what is missing from the team, and then go try and find it. Not an easy job to do, and often there is very little patience shown by the media and the fans alike.


Treliving had a 'soft entry' into the world of GMs. Not tasked with anything right away. Insulated. Not a team that needed to be torn down, and not a team with pressure to win right away, even when considering it is a Canadian market.


That's a soft landing spot as there ever is in the NHL. That's as close to a 'dream situation' as there can be, unless you are a GM with experience who somehow finds himself hired on a team that basically just needs a small piece or two (that's Feaster on the Lightning).

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ thanks, well said

You mention Feaster with the Lightning and I think of Burke joining Anaheim. Though obviously not a first time GM, he goes there and then Pronger needed out of Nogoodville, and Scott Niedermayer wanted to play with his brother

In fairness, Tre tried the same kind of thing with Freddie Hamilton. So there’s that