Flames Identity Crisis

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Who’s even available at the moment? How much does this coach even differ than any other coach right now? What even defines a good coach, past success? If that’s the case, then it’s really a chicken or the egg theory: does the coach make the players or do the players make the coach?

I’m probably one of the few people here who believes the players on this team are the bigger problem than the coach. This isn’t like a video game where we control the players’ movement and what plays to make or when to take a shot. This is mostly on the players, they’ve played the game long enough to know what success and failure looks like. Why is it mostly on the coach if a player doesn’t show up to play? If that player isn’t motivated enough by his ice time and his production and ultimately his money, then this guy doesn’t even deserve an NHL job.

The system in my opinion is on the GM. He interviewed the candidates, he picked the coach that would play out his vision and I believe it’s Brad Treliving that picked this complicated and overtaxing system for the group of players he has assembled. It requires hard work and a lot of attention to detail which this roster can’t care enough to pull off most nights. That’s unfortunately on Treliving. I know he’s a likable GM, very hard working and he has done a lot of good things, but it’s ultimately his vision and there’s been very little to no progression since the day he was basically hired.

You are right that there is much we do not know. Systems, what is going on in the room, the general attitude of the team, who would even come in to coach this group today if they could, are the GM's hands tied?

So let's focus on what we do know. This coach has made significant lineup blunders that have had lasting consequences. These blunders are plainly obvious to an outsider. The last one was painful to watch and ended up in our net 90 seconds into the game. Rittich in the playoffs is another one, the handling of Bennett another and there are many more. We know these are screwups because boy it sure seemed like it at the time and they have blown up in his face. We are where we are. So you'r sitting there in the room and the guy who's leading you who is supposed to be one of the best in the world is a screw up who makes bad judgement calls, great.

The roster that Brad built is limited in so many ways, but you know what, has shown they can be pretty good if the direction isn't confusing coming from a confusing guy. Again, if they are sitting there wondering if they should be playing more offensively or more defensively or whatever this supposed split is, the coach blows. That's kinda his area. And when Rhett says that some guys wanted to play run and gun and some guys wanted to play more defensively, the coach blew then too. That's his job.

This team also has mental limitations and they aren't motivated by the player's coach thing. It needs a straightforward hardass type where there will be no confusion. Hello Darryl, I say. He would actually take the burden off our wonderful team of mental little people. They no longer need to worry about all this identity crisis BS. They would just be Darryl's guys and they'd just need to pull on the rope and get a few blisters. I honestly think it would be a massive relief for them because the discussion around this team has gotten pretty batty. Darryl's identity gets into the room 10 minutes before his belt buckle does.

What if it doesn't work? Great, it's a teardown. Boom, easy. If it goes really sideways, they might even get a good pick out of it. But it would be better than whatever this #### is.

[Britflamesfan]

I just spent a happy half an hour watching the highlights of 2004, what a difference to the soft, slow, uninterested team that currently takes to ice most nights. Okay maybe not so skilled but I would take watching that team over this one every day. Hard hits, skating hard, never give up forecheck and all standing up for each other.

Absolutely no chance this team in its current form wins the Stanley Cup, so unless your aim is to just be mediocre then you have to change it up. I don't understand why the owners are prepared to just plow money into the team without getting even a half decent result for year after year. I hate football eg Premiership here in UK but the top teams are ruthless with their managers if its not working then they are gone, just look at Chelsea, beyond ruthless. Tre has had seven years to make his mark and he has failed utterly to even get the team close. Way past the time to move on from him, bring in a new GM and let him see out this season and then change everything up in the summer. Do not keep Tre on as he will start making panicky moves to save his job and we will get rubbish returns from good players who should net a good return. The team needs a couple of large hard defenders who players will not enjoy taking on, then it needs a bunch of forwards who actually give a damn and don't like losing.

Time to start again.

[CroFlames]

Did anyone catch the highlights of the Freidman hit today on The Fan? I caught the last 2 minutes and then it sounded like Rhett picked up where he left off yesterday regarding the room.

Sounds like this isn't going to get fixed until guys put their differences behind them and play for each other.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by David Struch

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-morning/

Rhett is a beauty....calls it like he sees it and its pretty hard to find a counter argument that would hold any water.

This is 100% on those guys in that room...including the coaching staff to a degree.

Mentally fragile/disengaged, whatever you want to call it, but it on te players to either be team together or not.

We keep hearing "what a great bunch of guys and how wonderful the room is"....what a load of crap. If that was true they simply wouldn't come out game after game after game unready to play for each other.....from the 1st line to the backup goaltender its all we have seen.

Yeah...people claiming its the "system" are delusional. This is no simpler than a bunch of guys that are just far to comfortable with losing because it's "hard" to play the way they should be.

Identity/culture/country club atmosphere....all of that stuff is established and maintained by the guys who pull that jersey over their heads daily.

Time for major changes is upon them even if the GM is unable to do much til the offseason.

They, and many fans, have been looking everywhere at everyone for who to blame. The answer is in the collective mirror and if they are unable to stand that critique they will fail miserably and many will be playing or looking for employment elsewhere come July.

Good.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah...people claiming its the "system" are delusional. This is no simpler than a bunch of guys that are just far to comfortable with losing because it's "hard" to play the way they should be.

I would say it's a combo of both. This is the same soft core, but given a better system (like the first year with Peters) that works for the players we have helps.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I would say it's a combo of both. This is the same soft core, but given a better system (like the first year with Peters) that works for the players we have helps.

I agree with this.

I don’t understand people that see the world in a purely binary light. That helps nothing

Just because the players are not playing to their potential doesn’t mean the coaching is ingenious. Sometimes these things are related

Remember how much Kipper liked taking faceoff stats on the clipboard when Hartley dressed the other goalie? You think Kipper did that with gusto?

As hard as you try to win a 1 on 1 battle, when it’s in the context of a 3 on 5 in the neutral zone, you are likely ultimately eventually going to lose the puck.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What does this even mean, “quick transition?” Don’t you have to defend well and/or successfully navigate through the other team’s forecheck/backcheck/trap in order to even attempt a “quick transition?”

This team is already playing a very aggressive style to not only create offensive chances, but to sustain offensive zone possession. The actual problem is that they’re too aggressive at times, or they’re too careless with the details at other times or they’re simply not winning enough 50/50 plays which when combined, equates to the opposition getting all kinds of easy counter attacks while the Flames collectively shoot themselves in the foot.

Yeah that's where I'm at.

The system has it flaws. Ward has his flaws.

But the single biggest issue I'm seeing is individual reads and execution. Making a play that is low percentage without support, mishandling pucks, turnovers.

Even if I liked Ward I wouldn't attempt to fight back the avalanche by saying it's not his fault ... the system has issues for sure.

But the turnovers aren't coached, they are individual mistakes. Ward coaches too conservatively if anything, so to think he's asking players to extend themselves into low percentage opportunities doesn't hit the mark.

The players have to step up ... I'm not 100% sure it's effort, that doesn't add up for me. But it's mental toughness, staying on your toes, getting yourself ready to play.

Has been the story for years with many coaches and still is.

[madmike]

On the plus side this story was on the Toronto sports broadcasts yesterday. So the Flames are getting national attention...

[ComixZone]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1362498887622172672

It still baffles me that Giordano said this. Checks and scores? This team does neither, and they look like they go out of their way to avoid finishing checks.

[MillerTime GFG]

RE: Rhett's (brilliant) rant on the Fan yesterday...

Do you think the Flames heard it, or heard about it? Maybe they don't care either way, but I just wonder if they know how much the City is talking about it. I know players often say they stay off of social media, don't listen to the media, etc., but I wonder. I feel like if I were an NHLer I'd want to tune into the Fan to see what the people think about me! But that's just me...

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

https://twitter.com/user/status/1362498887622172672

It still baffles me that Giordano said this. Checks and scores? This team does neither, and they look like they go out of their way to avoid finishing checks.

Yeah he sounds very confused. Telling sign when this is coming from the Captain.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Would be nice to see a clip of what Gio said, incase this is a bad paraphrasing job.

[Monahammer]

I hope that is a bad paraphrase lol. The team should do that, but they absolutely do not.

Gio out of touch... not surprising I guess.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

RE: Rhett's (brilliant) rant on the Fan yesterday...

Do you think the Flames heard it, or heard about it? Maybe they don't care either way, but I just wonder if they know how much the City is talking about it. I know players often say they stay off of social media, don't listen to the media, etc., but I wonder. I feel like if I were an NHLer I'd want to tune into the Fan to see what the people think about me! But that's just me...

They know about this even if they try and collectively avoid it.

When a team gets ripped that hard in the media there is no way it doesnt filter back into that room...like no chance. Its why you see guys spouting off to particular reporters questions, if they didnt read/hear it, they wouldnt be firing back.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's where I'm at.

The system has it flaws. Ward has his flaws.

But the single biggest issue I'm seeing is individual reads and execution. Making a play that is low percentage without support, mishandling pucks, turnovers.

Even if I liked Ward I wouldn't attempt to fight back the avalanche by saying it's not his fault ... the system has issues for sure.

But the turnovers aren't coached, they are individual mistakes. Ward coaches too conservatively if anything, so to think he's asking players to extend themselves into low percentage opportunities doesn't hit the mark.

The players have to step up ... I'm not 100% sure it's effort, that doesn't add up for me. But it's mental toughness, staying on your toes, getting yourself ready to play.

Has been the story for years with many coaches and still is.

Imagine having a team where the story has been the same for years and the GM does nothing about it. Year 7 of this same story.

[Bingo]

Mark Giordano has never struck me as a rah rah or even a cerebral guy when it comes to his press conferences etc.

I think he's a lead by example captain ... off the ice and on, and is simply a good human. He gets mentioned so often by teammates an ex teammates that I doubt he has lost the team's respect etc.

But to a man I'm sure they also know he's not going to deliver a Bill Pullman Independence Day speech any time soon.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Imagine having a team where the story has been the same for years and the GM does nothing about it. Year 7 of this same story.

Not sure that's the case. Only three players remain from the roster that he inherited.

Backlund, Giordano and Monahan.

Another player is inherited that wasn't on the roster ... Johnny Gaudreau.

He's drafted Matthew Tkachuk, Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane, Dillon Dube, Juuso Valimaki, Sam Bennett.

He traded for Elias Lindholm, Noah Hanifin, Milan Lucic.

Signed Chris Tanev, Jacob Markstrom, Josh Leivo, David Rittich, Connor Mackey, Derek Ryan, Dominik Simon.

I don't think doing "nothing" is a fair representation of what's gone on.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure that's the case. Only three players remain from the roster that he inherited.

Backlund, Giordano and Monahan.

Another player is inherited that wasn't on the roster ... Johnny Gaudreau.

He's drafted Matthew Tkachuk, Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane, Dillon Dube, Juuso Valimaki, Sam Bennett.

He traded for Elias Lindholm, Noah Hanifin, Milan Lucic.

Signed Chris Tanev, Jacob Markstrom, Josh Leivo, David Rittich, Connor Mackey, Derek Ryan, Dominik Simon.

I don't think doing "nothing" is a fair representation of what's gone on.

I think the reference is towards the core group of forwards and the GM's seems unwilling or unable (not sure which) to make a change.

The Flames have upgraded at the defense and goaltending position.

However I don't see any upgrades at forward rather just changing the depth forwards

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by flambers

I think the reference is towards the core group of forwards and the GM's seems unwilling or unable (not sure which) to make a change.

The Flames have upgraded at the defense and goaltending position.

However I don't see any upgrades at forward rather just changing the depth forwards

I think that's next.

If that core is only Backlund, Monahan and Gaudreau then sure. I think he's tried.

But otherwise, pretty much everything has changed. I don't consider Lindholm and Mangipapane "depth".

[The Boy Wonder]

Start of Rhett's rant when he went on about how many of these players don't finish checks and when they do the announcers oooh and aaah like it was a huge hit was absolutely spot on.

Whether they are being coached to not hit, or whether they are just lazy, the problem is that no one is willing to dig deep for their teammates.

This team has mid level talent with a bottom tier mental fortitude and even lower GAF