Blow it up!

[blender]

Originally Posted by flambers

Oh I second this for sure, forwards lack emotion and are way to inconsistent.

And they are not big enough and can't skate well enough.

[Flamesfan05]

The sooner they trade Monahan and Tkachuk the better.


Too slow and not enough skills to win anything in this league as the core players


Tkachuk was alright before but he abandoned his game. Now he thinks he is some kind of fancy player and he sucks at it.

[Two Fivenagame]

Two things that drive me up the wall about this group.

1) After they were eliminated last year, the players spoke endlessly about how tight the room is. Everyone is really close.

Well who gives a flying eff? Super-happy-friend-time dressing room has been embarrassed the last 2 playoffs.

2) According to Freidman, the players don't like being dragged into a fight by Matthew Tkachuk.

If super-happy-friend-time dressing room doesnt want to be in a war, don't stink the joint out!!

[blender]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think these are small factors, but the same truth is that rebuilding is extremely difficult, and nearly impossible to design. Many more fail than come close to succeeding.

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Depends what you consider success. Certainly winning a cup is a worthy goal, but there are lots of rebuilds that would be considered successful in and of themselves. Take Toronto for example. I consider that team rebuilt. They are realistically into a contention window. If they don't win a cup, whether through bad breaks or even bad execution or just having to play in a division with two of the all-time great post-lockout teams, can the rebuild be considered faulty?

By the same logic, what would be the minimum threshold for defining success? I honestly don't know, but it can't be cup or bust.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by blender

Depends what you consider success. Certainly winning a cup is a worthy goal, but there are lots of rebuilds that would be considered successful in and of themselves. Take Toronto for example. I consider that team rebuilt. They are realistically into a contention window. If they don't win a cup, whether through bad breaks or even bad execution or just having to play in a division with two of the all-time great post-lockout teams, can the rebuild be considered faulty?

By the same logic, what would be the minimum threshold for defining success? I honestly don't know, but it can't be cup or bust.

I do not define success by cup wins, and even by a much more modest measure there are lots of teams who never make it. In addition to Calgary, Winnipeg and Edmonton, I would include Buffalo, NJ, Columbus, Florida, Minnesota, and Arizona. Beyond these, it took TB, Washington, Dallas and St Louis at least a decade to get there. (And for a few of these teams that was with the contributions of generational players.)

Like I said: it is damn hard, and it requires a tonne of good fortune.

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[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

The sooner they trade Monahan and Tkachuk the better.


Too slow and not enough skills to win anything in this league as the core players


Tkachuk was alright before but he abandoned his game. Now he thinks he is some kind of fancy player and he sucks at it.

This is a bit carried away, they are young skilled guys who have shown they can be effective, guys you build around. There have been times where Tkachuk was amazing for this team. Trading for the sake of trading could backfire and we end up worse players. I don't know what Tkachuk problem is but that is something that has to be worked out internally. He is a young player still learning and growing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

They tried to kick open the window too fast and it burned them. Yes the Sam pick was a factor too, but if they were more patient the could have offset that with a couple other higher picks.

The only funny thing is that after watching that happen the Canucks went and made the EXACT SAME MISTAKE.

Stupid Canucks learning from the Stupid Flames.

The Sam pick was huge. I’d argue that Monahan and Tkachuk, the only other reasonably high picks, play at their draft position. But a 4OA should be your stud centre and if we could have run with a centre of, say Brayden Point quality, followed by Monahan and Backlund at their present levels (with or without Lindholm as well), the team would be a contender.

But yeah, 2015 PO run happened after the Sam draft, and the Flames got over excited and traded for Hamilton, with a pick that could have been Barzal, Conner, Boeser or Konecny (or some that didn’t work out of course).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Sam pick was huge. I’d argue that Monahan and Tkachuk, the only other reasonably high picks, play at their draft position. But a 4OA should be your stud centre and if we could have run with a centre of, say Brayden Point quality, followed by Monahan and Backlund at their present levels (with or without Lindholm as well), the team would be a contender.



But yeah, 2015 PO run happened after the Sam draft, and the Flames got over excited and traded for Hamilton, with a pick that could have been Barzal, Conner, Boeser or Konecny (or some that didn’t work out of course).

Even absent the Hamilton trade I don't think this group is a lot closer. If you add Barzal, that would then also mean subtracting both Hanifin and Lindholm. How much of an improvement does that actually make?

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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Even absent the Hamilton trade I don't think this group is a lot closer. If you add Barzal, that would then also mean subtracting both Hanifin and Lindholm. How much of an improvement does that actually make?

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True, but I’m imagining they struggle for a year or two through the Tkachuk pick, perhaps getting at least one or two good ones. And no Hamonic deal to shore up the D for a big push. No signing of Brouwer or Neal supposedly to complement the top line.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

This is a bit carried away, they are young skilled guys who have shown they can be effective, guys you build around. There have been times where Tkachuk was amazing for this team. Trading for the sake of trading could backfire and we end up worse players. I don't know what Tkachuk problem is but that is something that has to be worked out internally. He is a young player still learning and growing.

Tkachuk I can agree a little bit. Something went wrong with him this year. Maybe that can be fixed.

Monahan. Do you honestly believe we can win with him. The guy that quit when it gets tough. For 3 yrs now?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

True, but I’m imagining they struggle for a year or two through the Tkachuk pick, perhaps getting at least one or two good ones. And no Hamonic deal to shore up the D for a big push. No signing of Brouwer or Neal supposedly to complement the top line.

The Hamonic deal was clearly the worst one. However, I think my point here is that rebuilding is far from an exact science. I think Treliving has made some mistakes, but I also think the team has suffered from a lot of bad luck with things that they were doing right. I still like the management group, and am pretty comfortable with them moving forward.

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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Tkachuk I can agree a little bit. Something went wrong with him this year. Maybe that can be fixed.

Monahan. Do you honestly believe we can win with him. The guy that quit when it gets tough. For 3 yrs now?

Good lord. Monahan definitely has his flaws but "quitting when it gets tough" is not one of them.

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[t0rrent98]

IMO, this current team would do SLIGHTLY better than previous years with the addition of Markstrom and Tanev but that's if the season was back to normal. I'm sure it's been said from previous threads but Ward needs to think of this season as if the team was playing in the Playoffs seeing as how the play the same teams back to back to back.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Tkachuk I can agree a little bit. Something went wrong with him this year. Maybe that can be fixed.

Monahan. Do you honestly believe we can win with him. The guy that quit when it gets tough. For 3 yrs now?

Tkachuk used to carry the team at times and after the puck in the face incident probably a little miffed the team didn't have his back. He is not wrong, the team doesn't show up half the time. Whatever it is I hope they get him back in the fold because we need him at his best!

Agree, Monahan (although not the only one) needs to show more consistency; He does seem more physical this season. I think the Flames should explore trade options if they can improve the team. With quarantine and all not a lot of trades, out there now but if this team fails again this season they have to have to do something!

[ForeverFlameFan]

I really want us to full on scorch and rebuild soon enough... But, it doesn't seem like that is what ownership wants to do after signing Markstrom.

The 2021 draft will be a crap shoot. If there was a time to go all in, this would be the year where this may be the easiest time to get to the conference finals, if we can. We potentially only have Johnny for 1 more season (HAVE to assume that he doesn't re-sign with us). We'd be kicking ourselves if we bank on him staying in Calgary and then all of a sudden pulls a Tavares and leaves for his home town team.

Go all in, either this year or the next. I say do it right now while we still have games that we haven't played against Ottawa. We can pick up some easy wins and still be back in the race. Grab a top 6 forward, maybe another 6/7 D that can play good minutes when he needs to, and another veteran bottom 6er that can keep Nordstrom, Simon, and Rinaldo out of the lineup when our roster is 100%.

We have to at least go all-in one year with Treliving and Ward at helm, even if that isn't necessarily a good idea.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Good lord. Monahan definitely has his flaws but "quitting when it gets tough" is not one of them.

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But do you think the Flames can win with Monahan, or with the current center dept on the team?

If so, then what do you think the problem is? Coaching?

I actually think the roster is filled out rather nicely. No major holes. A top 6 RW would be nice. So would a superstar center. But I don't think there are any huge holes on the team as it stands.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Sam pick was huge. I’d argue that Monahan and Tkachuk, the only other reasonably high picks, play at their draft position. But a 4OA should be your stud centre and if we could have run with a centre of, say Brayden Point quality, followed by Monahan and Backlund at their present levels (with or without Lindholm as well), the team would be a contender.

But yeah, 2015 PO run happened after the Sam draft, and the Flames got over excited and traded for Hamilton, with a pick that could have been Barzal, Conner, Boeser or Konecny (or some that didn’t work out of course).

Monahan and Tkachuk are in the 80th+ percentile for 6OA picks (over the last ~30 years).

At least 40% of the 4OA's in that span are worse than Bennett. Shocking as it may be, he's damn near the median for that slot.

Since Francis/Yzerman, Backstrom is the best C taken 4OA (then Johansen and Weiss). Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, and Makar are the franchise D-men, and then there are a bunch of good to great wingers, and a bunch of disappointments.

It's anything but a guarantee to get a stud at 4OA. Collectively, our 6, 6, 4 picks are a lot better than one could expect.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Monahan and Tkachuk are in the 80th+ percentile for 6OA picks (over the last ~30 years).

At least 40% of the 4OA's in that span are worse than Bennett. Shocking as it may be, he's damn near the median for that slot.

Since Francis/Yzerman, Backstrom is the best C taken 4OA (then Johansen and Weiss). Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, and Makar are the franchise D-men, and then there are a bunch of good to great wingers, and a bunch of disappointments.

It's anything but a guarantee to get a stud at 4OA. Collectively, our 6, 6, 4 picks are a lot better than one could expect.

I’d check a few 5OAs for comparison to Bennett as well. Price, Kessel, Schenn, Neiderreiter, Lindholm. Funny though, in Bennett’s draft, you have to drop a few places to get better.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Monahan and Tkachuk are in the 80th+ percentile for 6OA picks (over the last ~30 years).



At least 40% of the 4OA's in that span are worse than Bennett. Shocking as it may be, he's damn near the median for that slot.



Since Francis/Yzerman, Backstrom is the best C taken 4OA (then Johansen and Weiss). Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, and Makar are the franchise D-men, and then there are a bunch of good to great wingers, and a bunch of disappointments.



It's anything but a guarantee to get a stud at 4OA. Collectively, our 6, 6, 4 picks are a lot better than one could expect.

That is actually pretty illuminating. So, should the team have traded down from #4? Maybe there is some merit in this.

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[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Monahan and Tkachuk are in the 80th+ percentile for 6OA picks (over the last ~30 years).

At least 40% of the 4OA's in that span are worse than Bennett. Shocking as it may be, he's damn near the median for that slot.

Since Francis/Yzerman, Backstrom is the best C taken 4OA (then Johansen and Weiss). Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, and Makar are the franchise D-men, and then there are a bunch of good to great wingers, and a bunch of disappointments.

It's anything but a guarantee to get a stud at 4OA. Collectively, our 6, 6, 4 picks are a lot better than one could expect.

This is one of the reasons I think the draft lottery should be levelled out more. The team that finished 4th last has half the chance of winning the lottery over the team that finished last, but I don't believe the difference between the team that finished 4th last compared to the team that finished last, is that big. Just like the difference between a team that barely makes the playoffs and one that barely misses is that big.

The salary cap and free agency rules took care of parity a long time ago. A strongly weighted draft lottery system is now counter to parity.