Pronman's 2020 Farm System Rankings

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by 868904

For me, it's not the size that i'm skeptical about with Wolf, it's the system he plays in.

Yea, he could be Carter Hart, but he could also be Leland Irving.

These were my exact thoughts as I read this discussion. Who can ever forget the excitement "Napoleon Dynamite" generated with his gaudy numbers in Everett. Looked like our goaltender of the future, then the Flames got involved in his development. Never get excited about goaltenders. EVER. Wolf's numbers are great, but Everett is a defensive team where their goaltenders put up some really good numbers. There is a reason this kid was picked in the 7th round. I would advise waiting until Wolf has a chance to play pro and have the Flames goaltending coaches get into his head. We've seen too many goaltenders go south the minute the Flames get their hands on them.

[SuperMatt18]

Goalies are always hard to predict and it’s a big jump from WHL to AHL to NHL but Wolf’s play isn’t just because of the team him front of him.

He has great Goals Saved Above Average numbers averaging over 1 GSAA per 60 minutes...which is pretty crazy. The only goalie in the CHL close to that was Nico Daws who is now the 2nd ranked goalie for the 2020 draft.

If Wolf ended up going undrafted last year and went back into the draft this year (like Daws) then he’d be a second round pick for sure likely.

Doesn’t mean he will be great at the NHL level but he’s trending well.

[Monahammer]

Wolf probably won't survive Sigalet. Seemingly no one can.

[Table 5]

Perhaps Wolf needs to follow the Costanza model, and do the opposite of everything the Flames ask of him.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Goalies are always hard to predict and it’s a big jump from WHL to AHL to NHL but Wolf’s play isn’t just because of the team him front of him.

The numbers of the other goaltenders seem to indicate the team defense is a great contributor to those numbers.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Wolf probably won't survive Sigalet. Seemingly no one can.

Rittich has become a NHL starter and was invited as an alternate to the 2020 All Star Game, all while under Sigalet's tutelage.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[VilleN]

What is it that we think Sigalet is doing to these goalie prospects? I have to say, I don’t think it has much to do with him. I wish the Flames would give their goalie prospects longer looks in the NHL... but that is a tough proposition as you can’t really shelter a goalie and a bad game likely leads to a loss.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by VilleN

What is it that we think Sigalet is doing to these goalie prospects?

No one here knows. It is the same answer to the question "What are Mitch Korn and Ian Clark doing to their goalie prospects?" Sigalet's biggest failings are not being among the best goalie coaches in the League.

I have to say, I don’t think it has much to do with him. I wish the Flames would give their goalie prospects longer looks in the NHL... but that is a tough proposition as you can’t really shelter a goalie and a bad game likely leads to a loss.

I am curious to know how you would have handled things differently over the past five or six years. Do you think Gillies deserved more NHL time despite not impressing much in the AHL? Would you have handled Parsons differently? MacDonald? Do you think Zagadulin earned NHL starts last year?

I just don't see any goalies under the current regime who look like they have been held back for lack of NHL exposure. The lack of NHL exposure sure looks more performance based to me.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am curious to know how you would have handled things differently over the past five or six years. Do you think Gillies deserved more NHL time despite not impressing much in the AHL? Would you have handled Parsons differently? MacDonald? Do you think Zagadulin earned NHL starts last year?

I just don't see any goalies under the current regime who look like they have been held back for lack of NHL exposure. The lack of NHL exposure sure looks more performance based to me.

Yeah I suppose you're right... It can be hard to gauge how a goalie will perform based on their AHL numbers. So much of a goalie's stats are heavily influenced by the team in front of them. Maybe giving Gillies a longer look in the NHL would have allowed him to settle in and gain confidence, hard to say... I certainly can't fault the organization...

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Yeah I suppose you're right... It can be hard to gauge how a goalie will perform based on their AHL numbers. So much of a goalie's stats are heavily influenced by the team in front of them. Maybe giving Gillies a longer look in the NHL would have allowed him to settle in and gain confidence, hard to say... I certainly can't fault the organization...

To an extent, yes, it can be difficult. However, one thing that seems pretty clear is that goalies who do not dominate at the AHL level over the course of at least a season also do not become NHL starters. Gillies has never done this. [EDIT] To put it another way, not all goalies who dominate the AHL become NHL starters, but all NHL starting goalies who have spent significant time in the AHL have been dominant there.

I think that Gillies was likely on track to be a very good NHL prospect with a bright future, but what really set him back was knee surgeries after his rookie pro season. He has never really been the same.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Rittich has become a NHL starter and was invited as an alternate to the 2020 All Star Game, all while under Sigalet's tutelage.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Rittich is one example, and frankly his consistency was worse this year.

I am not pretending to be a flames insider that knows exactly what sigalet does with our goalies nor how he "coaches" them.

The only thing I am saying is that Goalies seem to decline in NHL level playing ability the longer they are exposed to him.

Seems like a nice fellow, but with the record the organization has with goalies over the last 10 years, it is time for a switch imo. If he's good talent he will get picked up by another club. It's no direct slight on him, just a commiserate realization that this has been a profoundly weak aspect of our hockey club over the last decade and something's gotta give.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Rittich has become a NHL starter and was invited as an alternate to the 2020 All Star Game, all while under Sigalet's tutelage.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Rittich has shown no progress whatsoever since the 2017-2018 season.
Part of that is on Sigalet IMO.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

The numbers of the other goaltenders seem to indicate the team defense is a great contributor to those numbers.

Goals saved above average (GSAA) takes into account what the team gives up.

A goalie with a great GSAA is stopping x number of goals from happening vs the average goaltender in the same situations.

Nothing is a guarantee, but that stat isn't a team defense stat.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No one here knows. It is the same answer to the question "What are Mitch Korn and Ian Clark doing to their goalie prospects?" Sigalet's biggest failings are not being among the best goalie coaches in the League.

[/I]
I am curious to know how you would have handled things differently over the past five or six years. Do you think Gillies deserved more NHL time despite not impressing much in the AHL? Would you have handled Parsons differently? MacDonald? Do you think Zagadulin earned NHL starts last year?

I just don't see any goalies under the current regime who look like they have been held back for lack of NHL exposure. The lack of NHL exposure sure looks more performance based to me.

Not too mention they moved Lack to get Rittich on to the roster, and then essentially gave him 1/3 the starts the rest of that season, and almost half the year after.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Rittich has shown no progress whatsoever since the 2017-2018 season.

What?

2017–18: 16 starts, an 8-6-3 record — 2.92 GAA, 0.904 SP
2018–19: 42 starts, a 27-9-5 record — 2.61 GAA, 0.914 SP, 1 SO
2019–20: 48 starts, a 24-17-6 record — 2.97 GAA, 0.911 SP, 2 SO

There is definitely progress there. Even from his coming-out year last season to this year, while his numbers were down across the board, a 15% increase in his number of starts is itself not insignificant. But I think the question moving forward is two-fold: 1) At 28-years old, how much more potential does Rittich have to continue to improve and become more consistent; 2) how much of slide in his numbers this season was part of that development curve, as opposed to an actual regression?

Rittich is still awfully young for observers to be drawing firm conclusions, and I don't think any meaningful patterns about how he is being coached can be ascertained from the relatively short time he has been a NHL regular.

[Hot_Flatus]

So now we've devolved into blaming Sigalet? If anything, blame Treliving for not providing more to work with thus far. Something should be said for the guy getting a tonne of mileage out of Rittich at this point - a guy who came over quite raw and very much an afterthought. He's also gotten more mileage than he should have out of guys like Smith and Talbot to be quite honest.

Much like the team upfront, this is not a a coaching issue.

[Robbob]

I think the knock of Rittich is he can sometimes go on a emotional roller coaster and it gets him off his game. When he is on his game he is confident and everything is water off the ducks back. When he is off his game he tries to do to much. Probably part of the reason they didn't want to throw him in as a start in the playoffs. Kind of a catch 22 of how to try and get him some playoff seasoning.

I still think pulling Talbot was the right move as he looked off. Rittich jsut didn't get a chance to build his confidence and before long the entire team was deflated and it snowballed on them.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Rittich is one example, and frankly his consistency was worse this year.

I am not pretending to be a flames insider that knows exactly what sigalet does with our goalies nor how he "coaches" them.

The only thing I am saying is that Goalies seem to decline in NHL level playing ability the longer they are exposed to him.

I don't see it. If Sigalet was as much of an issue as some suggest, then I would have expected much stronger rebounds in performance from Brian Elliot or Mike Smith after moving on to a new organization and a new coaching staff after Sigalet ruined them.

Seems like a nice fellow, but with the record the organization has with goalies over the last 10 years, it is time for a switch imo. If he's good talent he will get picked up by another club. It's no direct slight on him, just a commiserate realization that this has been a profoundly weak aspect of our hockey club over the last decade and something's gotta give.

I think the issue is as simple as this: the top goalie coaches in the world can probably be counted on one hand. Off the top of my head, Mitch Korn, who has a long and impressive history of shaping starters from Nashville to Washington to NYI, and Ian Clark who has done the same from Columbus to Vancouver. There are probably a couple others that I cannot think of. Can you even name another NHL goalie coach? I sure can't, and this is because there aren't really any who boast the same sort of long-term success with multiple players over several years and through different organisations.

I definitely don't think Sigalet is an elite goalie coach, but it is also really difficult to confidently assert that he is any worse than average given what we know about how to evaluate these people leaguewide. I could be wrong, but I think Clark is due for a new contract this year, and if the Flames choose to make a change and manage to entice him to make the switch from Vancouver, then I would be all for it. But as it stands, I am really not convinced that just any other goalie coach is going to lead to better results.

[VilleN]

I don't know if there are any goalies out there on this forum who can answer this, but how important is a goalie coach? When we see a player who has a weak shot, or poor skating, or isn't getting better year over year etc. I don't see the same blame being laid on the coaches and trainers. It's typically the player being blamed. When it comes to goalies however, we seem to want to blame the goalie coach. Sigalet seems like an easy scapegoat to me.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't see it. If Sigalet was as much of an issue as some suggest, then I would have expected much stronger rebounds in performance from Brian Elliot or Mike Smith after moving on to a new organization and a new coaching staff after Sigalet ruined them.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but the one flaw in that argument is that if a goalie gets "ruined" it probably doesn't get fixed by moving away, at least not right away. Of course, of all the goalies Sigalet dealt with, those two plus Hiller probably would be the most impervious to his influence either way, being vets and, in Smith's case, arrogant ones.