Will the NHL boycott games? Should it?

[Brando]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Calling someone “bud” is quite dismissive.
Suggesting black people being arrested is because they’re generally violent is wrong and racist.
Suggesting if they just didn’t resist it would all be ok is simply wrong and also racist.
Black people are pre-judged as being deserving of being pulled over, arrested, OR SHOT WHILE BEING ARRESTED, simply due to the colour of their skin. That is racist and wrong.
Black people are being killed by police disproportionately.

Well, you know, that’s just like, your opinion, man. The way you throw around the term racist is gross and wrong. You don’t know me. You don’t know my history. Nothing I said was racist in the least. Fact is not racist. Never anywhere did I say blacks are generally violent. Those aren’t my words. You are creating a boogey man to continue your virtuous fight. For every instance of police shooting a black man unarmed there is 2 or 3 almost identical shootings of white people. But you are so set in your opinion you refuse to see them
Morgan West - feb 2019 - white - resisted arrest, fought with police shot while unarmed
Aaron prezkop- feb 2019 - white- approached police, said He wasn’t armed, didn’t obey commands and was shot while unarmed.
Eric Young - feb 2019- white - didn’t obey command to stop while approaching police, shot while unarmed.
Shawn Billinger- Jan 2019 - white - fled cop then turned around and walked aggressively toward cop. Shot while unarmed.

I could go on, there is 20 more of these showing police shoot white people as well but you don’t care you want to label them racist as well. Your rhetoric is not helping. Because of people like you being called racist has no meaning.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Brando

Well, you know, that’s just like, your opinion, man. The way you throw around the term racist is gross and wrong. You don’t know me. You don’t know my history. Nothing I said was racist in the least. Fact is not racist. Never anywhere did I say blacks are generally violent. Those aren’t my words. You are creating a boogey man to continue your virtuous fight. For every instance of police shooting a black man unarmed there is 2 or 3 almost identical shootings of white people. But you are so set in your opinion you refuse to see them
Morgan West - feb 2019 - white - resisted arrest, fought with police shot while unarmed
Aaron prezkop- feb 2019 - white- approached police, said He wasn’t armed, didn’t obey commands and was shot while unarmed.
Eric Young - feb 2019- white - didn’t obey command to stop while approaching police, shot while unarmed.
Shawn Billinger- Jan 2019 - white - fled cop then turned around and walked aggressively toward cop. Shot while unarmed.

I could go on, there is 20 more of these showing police shoot white people as well but you don’t care you want to label them racist as well. Your rhetoric is not helping. Because of people like you being called racist has no meaning.

I didn’t call you racist.

I said:

Suggesting black people being arrested is because they’re generally violent is wrong and racist.
Suggesting if they just didn’t resist it would all be ok is simply wrong and also racist.
Black people are pre-judged as being deserving of being pulled over, arrested, OR SHOT WHILE BEING ARRESTED, simply due to the colour of their skin. That is racist and wrong.

I hope people agree with the above as a general premise, idea and understanding.

The number of black people in society, as compared to the number of black people being shot, assaulted and/or killed by police is disproportionate. The numbers don’t match.

You did say:

Do you consider assaulting police officers, and having weapons to be violent? If so, then pretty much all of the 2019 police shootings. Blake would fit the category. Some of the arrests may have started from now violent crimes like Rayshard Brooks but they moment you start fighting officers that is a violent crime.

As we are in a conversation regarding black people being shot, assaulted and/or killed by police, my read of this is the writer is suggesting those incidents are due to the offender being violent, thus justifying or excusing the attacks or killings, or blaming the victim.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Brando

Morgan West - feb 2019 - white - resisted arrest, fought with police shot while unarmed
Aaron prezkop- feb 2019 - white- approached police, said He wasn’t armed, didn’t obey commands and was shot while unarmed.
Eric Young - feb 2019- white - didn’t obey command to stop while approaching police, shot while unarmed.
Shawn Billinger- Jan 2019 - white - fled cop then turned around and walked aggressively toward cop. Shot while unarmed.

And if they were Black, they would have been killed before they approached/walked aggressively towards a cop.

Black men are killed running and walking away. Some are killed just sitting in their vehicle, laying down on the ground, or playing with their toys in the park.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

I didn’t call you racist.

I said:

Suggesting black people being arrested is because they’re generally violent is wrong and racist.
Suggesting if they just didn’t resist it would all be ok is simply wrong and also racist.
Black people are pre-judged as being deserving of being pulled over, arrested, OR SHOT WHILE BEING ARRESTED, simply due to the colour of their skin. That is racist and wrong.

I hope people agree with the above as a general premise, idea and understanding.

The number of black people in society, as compared to the number of black people being shot, assaulted and/or killed by police is disproportionate. The numbers don’t match.

You did say:

Do you consider assaulting police officers, and having weapons to be violent? If so, then pretty much all of the 2019 police shootings. Blake would fit the category. Some of the arrests may have started from now violent crimes like Rayshard Brooks but they moment you start fighting officers that is a violent crime.

As we are in a conversation regarding black people being shot, assaulted and/or killed by police, my read of this is the writer is suggesting those incidents are due to the offender being violent, thus justifying or excusing the attacks or killings, or blaming the victim.

Well then I guess you read something, misinterpreted what it said then labelled it racist. And when people say racist things they are racist. No? You are suggesting that these people are being arrested because of the colour of their skin and not because of a crime being committed. Police are therefore racist and need to be defunded. All of them. Not the actual ones that are bad. Even the ones that are putting their lives on the line for black people they are serving in dangerous neighbourhoods. Your interpretation of what I wrote was wrong. That happens. it’s hard to clearly portray your thoughts in limited texts. But I don’t think numbers and stats can be racist, and I don’t think you should jump to that conclusion so easily. Look up violent crime rate committed by black men and tell me if it is not very disproportionate. This doesn’t mean I am saying they deserve to die because they fit the demographic. The black community has many problems and they need to be addressed, but this narrative that police are shooting black people based on the colour of their skin is wrong. Stats don’t support it.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think if everyone (of any race) complied with police demands to stand down fewer people would be shot/killed.

Have you heard of Saskatoon's Starlight Tours? You might want to look it up if you haven't

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Brando

Well then I guess you read something, misinterpreted what it said then labelled it racist. And when people say racist things they are racist. No? You are suggesting that these people are being arrested because of the colour of their skin and not because of a crime being committed. Police are therefore racist and need to be defunded. All of them. Not the actual ones that are bad. Even the ones that are putting their lives on the line for black people they are serving in dangerous neighbourhoods. Your interpretation of what I wrote was wrong. That happens. it’s hard to clearly portray your thoughts in limited texts. But I don’t think numbers and stats can be racist, and I don’t think you should jump to that conclusion so easily. Look up violent crime rate committed by black men and tell me if it is not very disproportionate. This doesn’t mean I am saying they deserve to die because they fit the demographic. The black community has many problems and they need to be addressed, but this narrative that police are shooting black people based on the colour of their skin is wrong. Stats don’t support it.

You are being very obtuse and clearly you don't actually want to be explained anything so that you can further understand racism, like you originally claimed.

Different posters have pointed out what you have said and how it's wrong, you continue to argue. You are either clueless, or just want to argue.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Have you heard of Saskatoon's Starlight Tours? You might want to look it up if you haven't

Starlight Tours had nothing to do with resisting arrest. That was just general acts of police dehumanizing random indigenous people.

It’s also not the greatest example because it’s almost an urban legend. Somewhat of a Stressand effect from the Saskatoon police on that one. They tried to cover it up but brought more attention to it but there isn’t much evidence the practice is or was ever common.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

You are being very obtuse and clearly you don't actually want to be explained anything so that you can further understand racism, like you originally claimed.

Different posters have pointed out what you have said and how it's wrong, you continue to argue. You are either clueless, or just want to argue.

Sure let’s go ahead with that. If you aren’t for BLM and defunding police you are racist or clueless. The stats (which I learned from a black man) are too. The police are the biggest problem for the black community. Forget the fatherless rate, gang violence , prison system, and welfare system. Glad you have it all figured out.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Brando

Sure let’s go ahead with that. If you aren’t for BLM and defunding police you are racist or clueless. The stats (which I learned from a black man) are too. The police are the biggest problem for the black community. Forget the fatherless rate, gang violence , prison system, and welfare system. Glad you have it all figured out.

Ah, the old I know a black guy, so I'm not racist.

Nevermind with your posts that actually had hints of racism and racial profiling, just beat that drum back to 1945.

You are what I thought you were.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Starlight Tours had nothing to do with resisting arrest. That was just general acts of police dehumanizing random indigenous people.

It’s also not the greatest example because it’s almost an urban legend. Somewhat of a Stressand effect from the Saskatoon police on that one. They tried to cover it up but brought more attention to it but there isn’t much evidence the practice is or was ever common.

That was my point, people don't need to resist to be murdered my cops.

[Scroopy Noopers]

People can say things out loud that they don’t personally find racist, without “being racist”. It’s totally fine to address that a statement one made is racist without thinking the speaker is a full on klan leader. What an adult would do in that situation, is listen and evaluate. Sometimes it’s hard to get a point across to others, have you ever tried to give instructions to someone? It’s a nightmare. Maybe your wording is off, or it was misinterpreted, or it needed more colourful graphs, whatever.

Being told you said something racist does not come with the implication that it’s all over for you, racist is tattooed on your forehead and the whole world sees it. It doesn’t. It’s how you portray yourself in responding and parallel discussions. And that goes both ways.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Starlight Tours had nothing to do with resisting arrest. That was just general acts of police dehumanizing random indigenous people.

"Dehumanizing" is an interesting way of saying "murdering".

You also really have to be kind of massively obtuse to not understand why racialized groups, who in the case of Starlight tours where well aware of the practice, might not want to subject themselves to the possibility of death without resistance.

You also have to be quite willingly obtuse (or extremely stupid, which I doubt) to not see how your argument holds very little water.

The Starlight Tours are just one of numerous examples that there is no guarantee of safety if you are a racialized person dealing with officers of the law who for all you know are likely to be racists and possibly violent. If you don't resist you might still be killed. You might also end up incarcerated for either made up reasons or even without charges.

When you say "less people would die if less people would resist arrest", it's really nothing but victim blaming, and does nothing to address the issue.

Yeah, fewer people would die if they didn't resist.

15 BLM protesters have also been killed by the police or run over or shot by white people this summer. Even one black police officer has been killed by a white supremacist. None of them would have died if they just stayed home and kept quiet. Do you hold the protesters responsiböe for their own deaths too?

You know what would REALLY help people not being killed? Police not killing people.

In most western countries almost no one ever gets killed while resisting arrest.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Itse

"Dehumanizing" is an interesting way of saying "murdering".

You also really have to be kind of massively obtuse to not understand why racialized groups, who in the case of Starlight tours where well aware of the practice, might not want to subject themselves to the possibility of death without resistance.

You also have to be quite willingly obtuse (or extremely stupid, which I doubt) to not see how your argument holds very little water.

The Starlight Tours are just one of numerous examples that there is no guarantee of safety if you are a racialized person dealing with officers of the law who for all you know are likely to be racists and possibly violent. If you don't resist you might still be killed. You might also end up incarcerated for either made up reasons or even without charges.

When you say "less people would die if less people would resist arrest", it's really nothing but victim blaming, and does nothing to address the issue.

Yeah, fewer people would die if they didn't resist.

15 BLM protesters have also been killed by the police or run over or shot by white people this summer. Even one black police officer has been killed by a white supremacist. None of them would have died if they just stayed home and kept quiet. Do you hold the protesters responsiböe for their own deaths too?

You know what would REALLY help people not being killed? Police not killing people.

In most western countries almost no one ever gets killed while resisting arrest.

What in gods name are you talking about?

Go back and read my post before responding like an #######.

No wonder people avoid this discussion.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Brando

Sure let’s go ahead with that. If you aren’t for BLM and defunding police you are racist or clueless. The stats (which I learned from a black man) are too. The police are the biggest problem for the black community. Forget the fatherless rate, gang violence , prison system, and welfare system. Glad you have it all figured out.

It’s not one or the other though.

I guarantee I have views differing from many, and need light shed on certain areas and views I had or have, and I may or may not change my opinion.

For example: Reading this thread had me finally understand what “defunding the police” meant. I did not understand what it was, did not do any deep reading or research into it, and someone in this thread set it out in a way I understood. I now believe and understand the intent is not “shut down police forces” but reduce and reallocate funding from policing directly to issues you just have set out via social programs and assistance.

What is the “it” which if fixed will be the panacea? Nothing. Helping and working in all areas together and at the same time are important.

BUT, the issue which seems to need to be first addressed is to stop killing black people by police at a disproportionately high rate. If we solve that, maybe we can then work on the other issues you mention, which are absolutely important as well.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think if everyone (of any race) complied with police demands to stand down fewer people would be shot/killed.

The irony of this post right after my post.... whoosh

[Brando]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Ah, the old I know a black guy, so I'm not racist.

Nevermind with your posts that actually had hints of racism and racial profiling, just beat that drum back to 1945.

You are what I thought you were.

Lol. If identifying that some black people actually agree or compiled the data I related to you is the same as I know a black guy then sure. If you see any negative reference towards race as racism you have the problem. Pointing out that a demographic or group of people statistically commit crime at a higher rate then others, is not racist. It’s fact when supported by data. You could problem even go further and say that black males, not females, Living in low income areas, between the ages of 16 and 45 with no high school education account for 50 percent of violent crimes. And then go even further and say males of any race between those ages without a high school, living in low income areas commit 75 percent or more of violent crimes. Those numbers are a guess. But we could actually find out those numbers because we compile those stats. A lack of equity is not an indicator of racist institutions.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

It’s not one or the other though.

I guarantee I have views differing from many, and need light shed on certain areas and views I had or have, and I may or may not change my opinion.

For example: Reading this thread had me finally understand what “defunding the police” meant. I did not understand what it was, did not do any deep reading or research into it, and someone in this thread set it out in a way I understood. I now believe and understand the intent is not “shut down police forces” but reduce and reallocate funding from policing directly to issues you just have set out via social programs and assistance.

What is the “it” which if fixed will be the panacea? Nothing. Helping and working in all areas together and at the same time are important.

BUT, the issue which seems to need to be first addressed is to stop killing black people by police at a disproportionately high rate. If we solve that, maybe we can then work on the other issues you mention, which are absolutely important as well.

Look, I can tell you actually think their is an issue that needs to be fixed and is worth doing just as I do. We may not agree with your theory how to do it. But that is besides the point. The only point I was trying to make is that the narrative that police are shooting black people at a disproportional rate is simply not true. Total population is irrelevant to the stats I shared. Police do not shoot people when they are not present. The people that are not reacting with police cannot be shot police. So it is imperative that we use the stat of violent crimes when doing this math. Police are shooting their firearms when violent crimes have been committed or when a suspect turns a police interaction violent by resisting and fighting with police. Violent crime disparities account for the death by police disparities that you are pointing out. Unfortunately black men statistically account for a high disproportional amount of violent crime. This is the tragedy and is rooted in bad past government policy, poverty, lack of work opportunity in black neighbourhoods. It needs to be addressed but me pointing out those disparities is not racist. I don’t know how to be more clear.

[dissentowner]

This has gone way off from anything to do with the NHL boycotting games and has become a race discussion. I have been camping and came to get info on the thread title subject but I am not wading through pages of debate that should be in the off topic forum. Would be nice if we could just stick to the NHL and not playing games here instead of having a detailed race debate.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Brando

Look, I can tell you actually think their is an issue that needs to be fixed and is worth doing just as I do. We may not agree with your theory how to do it. But that is besides the point. The only point I was trying to make is that the narrative that police are shooting black people at a disproportional rate is simply not true. Total population is irrelevant to the stats I shared. Police do not shoot people when they are not present. The people that are not reacting with police cannot be shot police. So it is imperative that we use the stat of violent crimes when doing this math. Police are shooting their firearms when violent crimes have been committed or when a suspect turns a police interaction violent by resisting and fighting with police. Violent crime disparities account for the death by police disparities that you are pointing out. Unfortunately black men statistically account for a high disproportional amount of violent crime. This is the tragedy and is rooted in bad past government policy, poverty, lack of work opportunity in black neighbourhoods. It needs to be addressed but me pointing out those disparities is not racist. I don’t know how to be more clear.

I see what you’re saying and, for the record, don’t think you’re being racist, but I do think you’re presenting the facts in a way that supports what you believe. It’s worth considering at least, especially when your examples of unarmed White people getting shot involved them approaching police (sometimes aggressively) while many instances of unarmed Black people getting shot involves them walking or running away. There’s obviously a difference there, and dismissing the idea of racism in the police entirely is about as practical as suggesting every time an officer kills a Black person it’s because of racism.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

This has gone way off from anything to do with the NHL boycotting games and has become a race discussion. I have been camping and came to get info on the thread title subject but I am not wading through pages of debate that should be in the off topic forum. Would be nice if we could just stick to the NHL and not playing games here instead of having a detailed race debate.

I agree that this thread is a train wreck, but it is at least an example of the temporary boycott having had some of the intended impact by creating a situation that has brought the conversation to people who usually wouldn't be engaged at all. This thread wouldn't have enabled that in the OT forum.