Hey man I’m open minded and willing to change my opinion and admit I’m wrong. Tell me why that is such a leap.
Unless I'm reading your post wrong, what you just said is police officers should expect all black people to be more violent because some black people commit violent crimes. That's profiling, by definition. Black people are not hardwired to commit crime. The reason they do so lies within the system that so often condemns them to economic hardship and other forms of racism.
Police officers are the executioner in the justice system far too often. This applies to all races. I can understand police using deadly force against shooters. But saying the levels of killing unarmed black people are proportionally sound is inherently flawed. There shouldn't be any proportions. The police shouldn't be killing anybody who is unarmed, and certainly nobody based on the idea that black people commit more violent crimes. That is racist.
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Hey man I’m open minded and willing to change my opinion and admit I’m wrong. Tell me why that is such a leap.
Well your numbers are wrong for one thing. 24 unarmed Whites and 14 unarmed Blacks. Not 9 unarmed Blacks. And the 5 year average is 23% of people killed by cops are Black while 13% of the population is Black. So it is a misrepresentation.
Bad patterns of behaviour are irrelevant. Each interaction with cops is unique on it's own. If an all-around angel pulls a gun on a cop and gets shot, it doesn't matter how much of an angel he was. If someone with a criminal record the size of the state of Texas poses no lethal threat and gets shot by a cop while he's walking away, it doesn't matter how much of a criminal he was.
IT IS relevant because it shows the likelihood of someone acting out violently towards you and whether you should be more careful around them or not. If police know that there's a warrant for Blake and he's known to be violent then why wouldn't you use take more precautions in dealing with him?
On the other side if Blake knows he has a warrant for him, don't you think that could affect his decision making process compared to if he didn't have anything against him? That he chose to be combative and wanted to leave vs if he had a clean record he'd be more likely to stay peaceful knowing he has nothing to hide?
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It's only relevant to people who want to justify the shooting in ways it cannot be justified. You're free to bring it up, but it doesn't matter. Either cops shooting people in the back is something you're ok with, and cops choking people to death when they're no threat to them is something you're ok with, or it's not.
Or maybe a person's history suddenly became irrelevant when its not a very good look to have major sports leagues and athletes and a huge movement to be supporting a man who less than 2 months ago broke into a woman's home that he knew and abused and sexually assaulted her and that he was going to court charged for several offenses for that incident. Naww that has NOTHING to do with why his history is irrelevant.
What if Blake had no criminal history whatsoever? Would you, BLM, the media etc. all say that that was irrelevant as well or don't you think that wouldn't be broadcasted 24/7 that an unarmed black man with no criminal history whatsoever was still shot by police anyways. That's a goldmine storyline that you would be using all day and night and you know it.
The same goes for the cop that shot Blake. If he had a long history of incidents of aggressively and even sometimes violently dealing with the public and he was disciplined several times for it, but was still on the force are you seriously going to tell me you would also say that's irrelevant and let that completely drop? Of course not. You and the media would be on that story 24/7 asking why he wasn't fired a long time ago rather than being allowed to still be a cop with that kind of record and rightfully so. There's no way you would say 'that cop's history isn't relevant to this incident' because clearly it is and you and everyone else WOULD NEVER let that drop because it was 'irrelevant'.
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Protesters do care about laws. Do rioters and looters? No, but why confuse them? If every protester is no different than a rioter and looter, every white man is no different than a white supremacist.
Because the supposed peaceful protesters don't condemn and separate themselves from the violent elements who are hijacking their movement and many more 'peaceful protesters' are probably rioters and looters themselves. If BLM is so concerned and didn't want their movement and their message to be lost with all the violent and destruction caused by people who might be using their protests as cover then they should actively work to stop those people instead of ignoring/encouraging or even taking part in the violence and looting.
I mean heck they even robbed a Ronald McDonald charity house in Chicago. Even THAT wasn't spared by these people and other BLM people have publicly declared that the looting was 'reparations' so its a OK. THAT'S the kind of people we should be supporting?? THOSE are the kinds of people that BLM and their supporters should be condemning and fighting against, not fighting with.
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Nobody deserves to be killed who isn't an immediate deadly threat. You understand that, right? Prostestors, Black people, White people, people defending property. An unarmed Black man with a warrant deserves to be treated the same as a White shooter carrying a gun at least.
An unarmed black man who fought with police and got free despite being tased and refusing all police commands to stop walking away doesn't sound very peaceful and friendly to me. Doesn't mean he deserved to get shot 7 times, but it doesn't mean that Blake had nothing to do with him getting himself shot either.
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Unless I'm reading your post wrong, what you just said is police officers should expect all black people to be more violent because some black people commit violent crimes. That's profiling, by definition. Black people are not hardwired to commit crime. The reason they do so lies within the system that so often condemns them to economic hardship and other forms of racism.
Police officers are the executioner in the justice system far too often. This applies to all races. I can understand police using deadly force against shooters. But saying the levels of killing unarmed black people are proportionally sound is inherently flawed. There shouldn't be any proportions. The police shouldn't be killing anybody who is unarmed, and certainly nobody based on the idea that black people commit more violent crimes. That is racist.
I apologize if I wasn’t clear, but I did not try to say that. The narrative that police are shooting black people disproportionately is simple not true. Unarmed white people are also being shot. On a second look the correct number is 24 white to 14 (Not 9)black in 2019.
-403 white suspects were killed by police
-24 were unarmed
-205 black suspects were killed by police
-14 black suspects were unarmed
-5.9% of white suspects killed were unarmed.
-5.6% of black suspects killed were unarmed.
The narrative that cops are racists gunning down black men is wrong. Black deaths are just in the media while white deaths aren’t. All the deaths are sad. But pushing this false agenda is just causing more division and chaos and that is needless and sad.
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In case anyone wanted some insight into how good causes, turn violent, and how blacks feel sometimes, here are a trio of posts I made in the off-topic forum over a 3 day stretch in early July where events led to me having a bit of a breakdown.
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Originally Posted by Crown Royal
Got pulled over again tonight, patted down. It's the same every time, there was magically a crime in the area by someone who fit my description.
My crime? Picking up drunk friends to get them home safely.
With everything going on I was scared out of my ####ing mind. Got home and cried out of relief. #### the police, #### anyone who has the nerve to defend then.
As an aside, my wife is amazing. Somehow she still makes me feel lucky at times like this.
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Originally Posted by Crown Royal
If people want to have a glimpse of how rioting happens, take a look at me in this thread.
I started off fairly level headed. But as more and more happens, I get more and more upset by what I see. I feel like people coming in and defending the police in blatant acts of unjust violence are telling me I don't ####ing matter, that if it happened to me they would be saying the same ####ing thing. Then I get pulled over, have my rights violated for no other reason than being responsible and protecting the safety of my friends and anyone they could have hurt if they drove drunk. Now someone is defending police for hiding their villainous actions?
I am a peaceful man, I am against physical conflict. But I'm at the point where if someone said to me the #### Azure and Yoho have said in person, I'm putting a mother####ing brick through their window.
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Originally Posted by Crown Royal
I feel helpless. I feel marginalized. I feel hated.
What do I do? Being a good person for my entire life doesn't seem to matter. Getting an education and being the first person in my family to go to college doesn't matter. Working hard and keeping my head down doesn't seem to matter. Hell, I got ####ing stabbed protecting a white co-worker.
What do we have to do to be treated like human ####ing beings. What? Please tell us. because we would love to know.
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Well your numbers are wrong for one thing. 24 unarmed Whites and 14 unarmed Blacks. Not 9 unarmed Blacks. And the 5 year average is 23% of people killed by cops are Black while 13% of the population is Black. So it is a misrepresentation.
And mostly what scorpion said.
You are correct that was honest mistake I was writing my reply to scorp when you posted this. You cannot just look at population disparities, while completely ignoring crime rate disparities. Black people committed violent crimes at a rate 2.8x of the rate of white people and they were also killed at the rate of 2.8x that of white people. The more violent police interactions a group had the more the likely hood of a police shooting. The question that needs to be asked is how can we help lower the violent crime rate.
In case anyone wanted some insight into how good causes, turn violent, and how blacks feel sometimes, here are a trio of posts I made in the off-topic forum over a 3 day stretch in early July where events led to me having a bit of a breakdown.
Bu.. but this makes me feel uncomfortable, so it can't be true
You are correct that was honest mistake I was writing my reply to scorp when you posted this. You cannot just look at population disparities, while completely ignoring crime rate disparities. Black people committed violent crimes at a rate 2.8x of the rate of white people and they were also killed at the rate of 2.8x that of white people. The more violent police interactions a group had the more the likely hood of a police shooting. The question that needs to be asked is how can we help lower the violent crime rate.
This is actually pretty easy and the cause for black neighborhoods being more violent is systemic racism.
Poverty is the #1 reason people turn to crime. If you close the gap between the upper class and the lower class, thing will improve exponentially.
Step 1: Do something about wage disparity between people of color and whites.
Step 2: Change the way schools in the US are funded. They are currently funded via taxes in their their school districts. This leads to schools in rich neighborhoods being exceptional, and ones in poor neighborhoods being borderline useless.
Step 3: Improve the quality of public defenders. The poor are disproportionately more likely to take a plea deal for a crime they didn't actually commit. This can be achieved by requiring all lawyers to take cases as a public defender, which would also ease the load on over worked public defenders.
Step 4: Defund the police. Now to be clear, by defund, I do not mean eliminate police, but reallocate a portion of their budget to social programs geared towards youth in poor neighborhoods.
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This is actually pretty easy and the cause for black neighborhoods being more violent is systemic racism.
Poverty is the #1 reason people turn to crime. If you close the gap between the upper class and the lower class, thing will improve exponentially.
Step 1: Do something about wage disparity between people of color and whites.
Step 2: Change the way schools in the US are funded. They are currently funded via taxes in their their school districts. This leads to schools in rich neighborhoods being exceptional, and ones in poor neighborhoods being borderline useless.
Step 3: Improve the quality of public defenders. The poor are disproportionately more likely to take a plea deal for a crime they didn't actually commit. This can be achieved by requiring all lawyers to take cases as a public defender, which would also ease the load on over worked public defenders.
Step 4: Defund the police. Now to be clear, by defund, I do not mean eliminate police, but reallocate a portion of their budget to social programs geared towards youth in poor neighborhoods.
Marxism at it's finest
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This is actually pretty easy and the cause for black neighborhoods being more violent is systemic racism.
Poverty is the #1 reason people turn to crime. If you close the gap between the upper class and the lower class, thing will improve exponentially.
Step 1: Do something about wage disparity between people of color and whites.
Step 2: Change the way schools in the US are funded. They are currently funded via taxes in their their school districts. This leads to schools in rich neighborhoods being exceptional, and ones in poor neighborhoods being borderline useless.
Step 3: Improve the quality of public defenders. The poor are disproportionately more likely to take a plea deal for a crime they didn't actually commit. This can be achieved by requiring all lawyers to take cases as a public defender, which would also ease the load on over worked public defenders.
Step 4: Defund the police. Now to be clear, by defund, I do not mean eliminate police, but reallocate a portion of their budget to social programs geared towards youth in poor neighborhoods.
I wholly agree that crime and poverty are very closely related. We most definitely need to invest in low income communities. Especially in the schools. They also need to do more prison reform and quit locking up people for small possession and most non-violent crimes. The black community needs more fathers in their homes and less in jails. I disagree about the police though. The police need better and more training. We cannot expect them to make the right decision every time in highly stressful, life or death situations, with dangerous criminals when they are getting as poor of training as they are. Some agencies only give their officers 5 simmunition training scenarios once every three years, and they only shoot their firearms for practice once a year. Many do zero de-escalation training. This is a very difficult job when you factor in the danger aspect. Our officers need more funding if anything. There are many great LEO’s out there willing to take a bullet for strangers. There are many bad ones as well. Can’t paint them all with same brush.
Well the NBA and NHLs attempted and intended message had an impact on at least one fan and I’d like to believe the majority of people have done, or plan to do something similar.
I took this short pause by the NHL and NBA as a perfect opportunity to have a deeper talk with the wife and two pre-teen daughters than we ever had before. I brought up what’s happening and reinforced what our family’s beliefs and stance are regarding some of the atrocities at hand. As expected, everyone vehemently agreed ithat the colour of someone’s skin or gender has never and will never have any bearing on how we think towards and/or treat anyone.
There is absolutely incredible people to horribly evil people and everything in between of every skin colour on the planet so just think of the possible missed opportunities to meet greatness or positive impacts on your life because you disregarded someone based on their skin colour. It just makes no sense.
I also let them know that if they are ever hanging out with friends and someone makes a joke about or says something racist or sexist that they have the power to tell that person how they feel and won’t put up with that garbage.
So to those saying “what’s the point to this?”, I think that kinda stuff is part of it.
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Pretty much every answer to every question and hypothetical you’ve posed has been discussed ad nauseam here and across the Internet in countless articles by countless sources. So I invite you to look it up and do some reading, if you’re interested.
Read things you disagree with from sources you don’t like, and if it changes your mind, great, if it doesn’t, great.
I wholly agree that crime and poverty are very closely related. We most definitely need to invest in low income communities. Especially in the schools. They also need to do more prison reform and quit locking up people for small possession and most non-violent crimes. The black community needs more fathers in their homes and less in jails. I disagree about the police though. The police need better and more training. We cannot expect them to make the right decision every time in highly stressful, life or death situations, with dangerous criminals when they are getting as poor of training as they are. Some agencies only give their officers 5 simmunition training scenarios once every three years, and they only shoot their firearms for practice once a year. Many do zero de-escalation training. This is a very difficult job when you factor in the danger aspect. Our officers need more funding if anything. There are many great LEO’s out there willing to take a bullet for strangers. There are many bad ones as well. Can’t paint them all with same brush.
I have a great deal of respect for the good cops that are out there, my life was saved by two of them. But you also have to realize that moving that money into other areas will ease their burden too, because they are asked to do several things that they aren't trained for. That money could be used to train social workers to go with police for things like welfare checks. I agree wholeheartedly about deescalation training, it is something that is desperately needed, using their gun should always be a last resort.
I wholly agree that crime and poverty are very closely related. We most definitely need to invest in low income communities. Especially in the schools. They also need to do more prison reform and quit locking up people for small possession and most non-violent crimes. The black community needs more fathers in their homes and less in jails. I disagree about the police though. The police need better and more training. We cannot expect them to make the right decision every time in highly stressful, life or death situations, with dangerous criminals when they are getting as poor of training as they are. Some agencies only give their officers 5 simmunition training scenarios once every three years, and they only shoot their firearms for practice once a year. Many do zero de-escalation training. This is a very difficult job when you factor in the danger aspect. Our officers need more funding if anything. There are many great LEO’s out there willing to take a bullet for strangers. There are many bad ones as well. Can’t paint them all with same brush.
Reading this it is clear you do no understand what is meant by defund the police. Please watch this if you’d like to be entertained while enlightened:
Or feel free to look up an alternative detailed explanation.
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I wish a reporter would ask some of these police union presidents in the states who are supporting trump and allege that 99.9 percent of the police are good for the names of the officers in their union who are not good. One would think a body who investigates crime could easily name the criminal elements in their midst. For the guy in New York who came out in support of Trump it should be 24 names if the 99.9 percent number is accurate, according to my math.
I have a great deal of respect for the good cops that are out there, my life was saved by two of them. But you also have to realize that moving that money into other areas will ease their burden too, because they are asked to do several things that they aren't trained for. That money could be used to train social workers to go with police for things like welfare checks. I agree wholeheartedly about deescalation training, it is something that is desperately needed, using their gun should always be a last resort.
That’s great that you feel that way about cops, unfortunately many do not feel that way and instead say things like f*** the police and kill pigs. I think that’s why BLM is such a polarizing organization. It has many leaders. Half the leaders say inflammatory things and incite the violence and riots, and the other just want reform. Who are the actual leaders of BLM?
Also I think it is also already the case that guns are last resort but because of the upcoming election BLM is being used as a pawn for democrat party. This will largely pass after the election just as it did in 2016.
I have a great deal of respect for the good cops that are out there, my life was saved by two of them. But you also have to realize that moving that money into other areas will ease their burden too, because they are asked to do several things that they aren't trained for. That money could be used to train social workers to go with police for things like welfare checks. I agree wholeheartedly about deescalation training, it is something that is desperately needed, using their gun should always be a last resort.
That’s great that you feel that way about cops, unfortunately many do not feel that way and instead say things like f*** the police and kill pigs. I think that’s why BLM is such a polarizing organization. It has many leaders. Half the leaders say inflammatory things and incite the violence and riots, and the other just want reform. Who are the actual leaders of BLM?
Also I think it is also already the case that guns are last resort but because of the upcoming election BLM is being used as a pawn for democrat party.
This is actually pretty easy and the cause for black neighborhoods being more violent is systemic racism.
Can you define what 'systemic racism' means to you and where in Canadian society that you see systemic racism in action that always only seems to impact natives or black people and not any other minority group in any significant way?
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Poverty is the #1 reason people turn to crime. If you close the gap between the upper class and the lower class, thing will improve exponentially.
Toronto/GTA is one of the top multicultural cities in the world and there are millions of minorities living here with hundreds of thousands of them living in poverty in the exact same neigbhorhoods as black families do and all their kids go to the same schools and hang out at the same parks and malls as black kids do and yet how come very few of those non-black minority kids turn to violence and crime?
Wouldn't we except that because they live in the exact same environment and poverty side by side with black people that they too would have more of their kids also being involved in crime, violence and gangs and yet that hasn't happened at all. I wonder why? Are they privileged too in some way that they're able to avoid all of that?
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Step 1: Do something about wage disparity between people of color and whites.
Which jobs are 'people of color' being paid less at? Is an asian person working at McDonalds or Loblaws getting paid more than a black person working the exact same job?
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Step 4: Defund the police. Now to be clear, by defund, I do not mean eliminate police, but reallocate a portion of their budget to social programs geared towards youth in poor neighborhoods.
If that's what you want to happen then why not simply say straight up 'REALLOCATION of funds' instead of 'defund' the police and make people think you want to cut the number of cops?
And by the way a number of people aren't talking about reallocation of funds only, but literally abolishing not just the police, but prisons as well.
well, you say that but I distinctly remember that literally EVERY news media outlet ran the OJ hotel robbery conviction story with the "finally, the pos got
what he deserves" angle.
Not a single one of them ran that story without mentioning the you know what.
Having said all that, I do agree with you that it shouldn't matter.
I didn’t know OJ was shot, while unarmed. I thought he was arrested, tried, convicted and went to jail for committing a crime.
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