Canadian Scientist comes out against Global Warming

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Looger

i disagree hulkrogan.

the heart of the debate for me lies in the mechanism at work to 'clean up our act'.

being blamed (taxed) for something i didn't do - that is finance entire economies to go in this wasteful direction, when no emergency situation exists, is not a positive outcome and doesn't necessarily reduce emissions - look at kyoto, where the rich countries can just buy credit off of the poor countries that aren't even close to being allowed to HAVE polluting industries! what total garbage, what insane nonsense.

the blame game is a bad one to play, and unfortunately it's one being played.

i think we should realize that we're not in emergency mode, and change via regulations and new standards to adjust to lower outputs of harm without deep-sixing our economies or filling up the coffers of the super-rich with global taxes - a bad precedent.

First of all, incase it starts heading that way, lets not get into a debate whether kyoto is the right course of action, whether or not global warming is caused by humans.

Second, your response doesn't really address my point. You responded by saying "I disagree because humans aren't causing global warming so we should react differently".

My point is that I don't think we can say 100% either way. There is VERY strong evidence that at the least we are contributing to some extent. My personal opinion is that its fairly obvious we aren't helping any, but that is beside the point. The safest route is to ignore the cause of global warming and to work towards minimizing our impact. Reducing air pollution has a fairly obvious net positive effect.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

First of all, incase it starts heading that way, lets not get into a debate whether kyoto is the right course of action, whether or not global warming is caused by humans.

kyoto is aboot the only benchmark we have for these globalist solutions, and it's a pretty terrible one.

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Second, your response doesn't really address my point. You responded by saying "I disagree because humans aren't causing global warming so we should react differently".

i said no such thing.

i think that we should simply not freak out and do something drastic.

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

My point is that I don't think we can say 100% either way. There is VERY strong evidence that at the least we are contributing to some extent. My personal opinion is that its fairly obvious we aren't helping any, but that is beside the point. The safest route is to ignore the cause of global warming and to work towards minimizing our impact. Reducing air pollution has a fairly obvious net positive effect.

i agree. we should reduce our output.

my point is that this is being spun as a crisis, and with a crisis radical things happen.

problem - reaction - solution

create the problem - manipulate the reaction - provide the solution

this is quite literally the oldest trick in the book and i cannot stand idly by while people openly discuss falling for it again.

[calculoso]

I don't think that humans are the main driving force in creating global warming, but anything that cleans up our air has to be a good thing.

Enough of the smog.. enough of the polutants.. enough of the smoke.. enough of the acid rain... let's just clean things up regardless!

[Looger]

calculoso, aren't you supposed to be in the galapagos islands for nixon's head's party? i hear that he stepped out for some smokes - really good ones!

<semi-obscure futurama global warming reference...>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgE_mkR2oac

none like it hot!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by llama64

Can't campaign on a platform against gay marriage or abortion anymore, so they gotta make something a moral dilemma.

Global warming is happening, it's not a matter of belief or not, the facts are there. Whether humans are conclusively to blame and whether this is a bad thing is up for debate. I mean really, how many massive coastal cities do we need?

Vancouver could use a good soaking me thinks...

I find it amusing when people state that they don't "believe" in global warming.

I find it amusing that many people automatically think that the main cause is human activity.....seeing since Earth has had numberous cycles of warming and cooling. Did you know that there use to be an ocean where Alberta is now???

Come on now....there are sooo many variables we really do not know what is heating the earth.

Are CO2 a contributing factor? Yes for sure, but there are many other factors that we really don't know how much it contributes.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I don't think that humans are the main driving force in creating global warming, but anything that cleans up our air has to be a good thing.

Enough of the smog.. enough of the polutants.. enough of the smoke.. enough of the acid rain... let's just clean things up regardless!

I agree that we should take steps to reduce air pollutants. Kyoto does nto do that. Besides, CO2 is not a pollutant. Lets focus on serious air pollutants not a natural occuring gas that plants need to live.

[JimmytheT]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The truth is we will never know for sure until its either too late or nothing happens.

Its the oil cruisis of the 70s all over again, we will run out by the year 2000 - oh wait we were wrong, its the year 2007, oh wait wrong again the year 3000

Scientists cant find a direct link between humans and apes yet, only hypothesis's. Until that simple (what should be simple if its true) link can be made, I wont trust any scientists.

The only truth is this, releasing carbon emissions into the atmosphere is not a good thing, who knows what it causes - but its not a good thing.

I have always wondered how the UN signed off on the Kyoto Protocol and yet there was that report last week on how the scientists have confirmed Global warming - what is the point of a UN sponsored report when its supposedly already been confirmed because of Kyoto?

Unless Kyoto was just Europe's attempt to balance the economic playing field of the mid to late 90's with the US and Canada (since they are magically the only countries that have to do anything). Funny how that ended up hmmmm.

MYK

I do not want to derail this thread, however the bolded statement has to be addressed. Scientists have not found a direct fossil link to a single common ancestor for modern apes and humans, however there is plenty of other types of direct evidence, like mapping Genomes, other fossilized remnants of ancient human and ape species that are now extinct etc.

Please try to understand and learn more about the scientific method, modern biology and primatology before making such statements like the one above. Also understand that for the remains of a creature to become fossilized, very special circumstances must be present. Over 99% of plant and animal remains will never get fossilized.

Okay, I'm done, back to global warming

[Bill Bumface]

A little useless and off topic here, but it ****es me off that one of the easiest ways to remove C02 from our atmosphere is illegally getting hacked down everyday and no one is doing anything to stop it.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Looger

i hope that people realize that when issues as complex as this have 'two sides' we are in deep deep trouble.

Where would you place global warming on the fear-love lifeline?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

A little useless and off topic here, but it ****es me off that one of the easiest ways to remove C02 from our atmosphere is illegally getting hacked down everyday and no one is doing anything to stop it.

I agree....it saddens me aswell. But Brazil is a sovereign nation....there is nothing we can really do other than purchase all that land.....and they might not even allow that.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Where would you place global warming on the fear-love lifeline?

somewhere close to ling ling and the wallet!

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by JimmytheT

I do not want to derail this thread, however the bolded statement has to be addressed. Scientists have not found a direct fossil link to a single common ancestor for modern apes and humans, however there is plenty of other types of direct evidence, like mapping Genomes, other fossilized remnants of ancient human and ape species that are now extinct etc.

Please try to understand and learn more about the scientific method, modern biology and primatology before making such statements like the one above. Also understand that for the remains of a creature to become fossilized, very special circumstances must be present. Over 99% of plant and animal remains will never get fossilized.

Okay, I'm done, back to global warming

No, scientists have not found a direct link, where again do male apes have 1 less rib bone than female apes - yah thanks. Regurgitating what professors say doesnt make it fact.

I also apologize for derailing this thread, although no DIRECT link has been found. I as simply using it as an example of the scientific communities zeal to solve everything when they cant solve the simplest thing.

Again, sorry - I could not let that post go.

MYK

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

Good read... whether you belive it or not it outlines the current political influence on science. I am sure it happens on both sides.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/...ming020507.htm

Seems like this has gone beyond science and more toward an ideology.

No offense, but if you look closely into the career of Dr. Ball, he's not actually a "scientist"--in the sense that he doesn't do actual science. He's a member of an ideological think tank, and a former professor who hasn't published an article in a refereed scientific journal in decades. Not to say that there isn't a debate, but this guy's a quack.

[worth]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

No, scientists have not found a direct link, where again do male apes have 1 less rib bone than female apes - yah thanks. Regurgitating what professors say doesnt make it fact.

I also apologize for derailing this thread, although no DIRECT link has been found. I as simply using it as an example of the scientific communities zeal to solve everything when they cant solve the simplest thing.

Again, sorry - I could not let that post go.

MYK

WTF are you talking about 1 less rib bone?

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

No, scientists have not found a direct link, where again do male apes have 1 less rib bone than female apes - yah thanks. Regurgitating what professors say doesnt make it fact.

I also apologize for derailing this thread, although no DIRECT link has been found. I as simply using it as an example of the scientific communities zeal to solve everything when they cant solve the simplest thing.

Again, sorry - I could not let that post go.

MYK

Yeah why haven't scientists solved something as simple as the origin as man? What a bunch of morons. You think they would have thrown that together over a weekend. We should just stop listening to them.

The whole man is descendants of apes theory is widely accepted by the scientific community. Of course it is just a theory, pretty much everything is (gravity for example). Most scientists never claim to have a 100% answer to everything. This goes for the missing link and global warming.

[Looger]

this is some DANGEROUS logic here...

just because evolution is by far the majority opinion among scientists, and it's an 'unproven' theory by the criteria that pretty much every theory is unprovable, then by extension global warming must be caused predominantly by man's 20th century waste gases, even when nothing close to the evolution-missing-link theory consensus exists regarding global warming, and the entire debate is muddied at every turn!

good one.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Looger

this is some DANGEROUS logic here...

just because evolution is by far the majority opinion among scientists, and it's an 'unproven' theory by the criteria that pretty much every theory is unprovable, then by extension global warming must be caused predominantly by man's 20th century waste gases, even when nothing close to the evolution-missing-link theory consensus exists regarding global warming, and the entire debate is muddied at every turn!

good one.

I'm interested to know where these legions of scientists who don't believe in anthropogenic climate change are--and why they haven't been publishing their findings as original research in scholarly, peer-reviewed journals. If they know something, don't they have a responsibility to share it with the world?

Maybe they're too busy writing op-ed pieces.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I don't think that humans are the main driving force in creating global warming, but anything that cleans up our air has to be a good thing.

Enough of the smog.. enough of the polutants.. enough of the smoke.. enough of the acid rain... let's just clean things up regardless!

Very well said.

Lets go another route here....why don't we start using more nuclear energy, instead of fossil fuels?

I know it will create a problem with waste disposal, but whats worse....global warming, or waste disposal? Since its 90% probable that global warming is man-made. According to the latest reports...

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Here's an interesting read for anyone interested in the real story behind "Dr." Timothy Ball.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006...for_325000.php

The full story is also available on globeandmail.com for subscribers. Essentially, Dr. Ball is suing a professor of climatology (a REAL scientist) for defamation, after Prof. Dan Johnson called him out for playing fast and loose with his credentials. Debate is a good thing: a debate on climate change that shuts out proven liars and quacks like Timothy Ball is even better.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Very well said.

Lets go another route here....why don't we start using more nuclear energy, instead of fossil fuels?

I know it will create a problem with waste disposal, but whats worse....global warming, or waste disposal? Since its 90% probable that global warming is man-made. According to the latest reports...

FWIW, I agree. Dealing with Nuclear waste is, as a matter of scale, a far smaller problem than global climate change. I think any honest environmentalist ought to recognize that nuclear power is the next logical step in getting rid of our dependence on fossil fuels--at least until things like Hydrogen become more practical. As it stands, nuclear power is the most feasible alternative.