Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[Mayo]

The aid package is the equivalent of someone punching you in the face and then giving you a band-aid

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

the term is underwhelming. More was done for the auto industry during the last recession. It says a lot when the government isn't willing to do something similar in terms of investing in the industry.

Did the last recession have a cartel of major auto producers driving down the costs of cars worldwide to the point it would be pushing the price of locally made cars so low they might be paying me to take their vehicle off the lot?

[CaptainCrunch]

No but the last recession drove down the sales figures of cars and shrank the market which is literally the same thing. They could manufacture but not sell.


If there's one thing with Oil and Gas is that the demand hasn't gone away, the pricing has been deflated through factors both intentional and unintentional.


At the same time Oil and Gas is a major source of revenue for governments and for employment so it should be supported in the same way.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Did the last recession have a cartel of major auto producers driving down the costs of cars worldwide to the point it would be pushing the price of locally made cars so low they might be paying me to take their vehicle off the lot?

No but then again the last recession didn’t have the country actively working against it to restrict moving cars to markets to be sold and thus forcing the auto industry to have to accept sub market prices.

I mean, that would be absolutely ridiculous wouldn’t it?

[Flash Walken]

People who can't understand the difference between a bridge loan during a liquidity recession and what's happening now aren't worth listening to. Some people will complain s out anything, but some people will complain about EVERYTHING.

The only reason that ended up costing Canadians any money was because of s dumb decision to sell the GM shares to manipulate the budget shortfalls.

Surely you guys don't want the federal government to nationalize the oil patch or create some kind of National Energy Program? Just socialize the losses and privatize the profits? Orphaned wells for everyone!

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If there's one thing with Oil and Gas is that the demand hasn't gone away, the pricing has been deflated through factors both intentional and unintentional.

COVID-19 has led to massive demand destruction. O&G is getting pummeled from both sides.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Considering that more then 100 billion has been spent on this and 500 million spent today on the arts, its not much of anything. There is no real help coming for Oil and Gas in Alberta and likely after this announcement we'll probably end up losing more jobs then we gain.



Bombardier which employs about 1700 people I believe has in its history received more then a billion in bailouts.



The Oil and Gas industry has been a major massive amount of tax income provincially and Federally and we got amounts to the bare minimum.



There's not much in terms of help here for Oil and Gas.

What did the auto bailout net out for the taxpayer? I know that the Tories sold the shares early to balance the budget which reduced the amount of money that the government received back, but I wonder if the net gift to the industry was more or less than the 2.45 billion dollar gift that was announced yesterday.

The price point of oil is tough because obviously the private market is the best determinant of price. Not sure Albertans want global governments determining how much supply is on the market as opposed to allowing the invisible hand to determine price.

Maybe they should just allow countries to have whatever their market share was in 2014. That would any country who was recklessly flooding the market and driving down the price since then.

[GGG]

Liquidity will become an issue if this continues for more than a few months. Any debt renewals next year will be a challenge. I think this is where the government could provide assistance in buying debt in exchange for shares of the companies. It aligns well with the bets already made on TMX and Keystone.

Outside of that I’m not sure what would make sense. They are supporting payroll generally I believe with the CREB money but O+G salaries are too high to get significant benefits from it.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

But most of those wells were owned by companies that got decimated into non-existence, partially due to government policies...How are they supposed to pay for it?

Would be interested in how the former execs of those companies made out.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Would be interested in how the former execs of those companies made out.

We’re talking about wells from the ‘60’s, ‘70’s, ‘80’s and ‘90’s. Some or most of these “execs” are retired or dead.

Yeah it was wrong for companies to turn their back on abandonment and reclamation liabilities but it is what it is at this point. Many of the wells are owned by government or by companies today that literally can’t afford to abandon and reclaim them. So we can either agree that yes taxpayers have to pay to help clean some of this stuff up, or the alternative is these wells don’t get cleaned up. And again let’s not forget that for decades taxpayers benefited massively from the enormous wealth created across the nation for many years from the oil and gas sector too. We can be mad and stomp our feet all we want and not lend money to the province or whatever but at the end of the day stuff just doesn’t get done, the end. It’s not like CNRL is going to go change their budget to 100% abandonment because we had lax regulations 40 years ago. It is what it is and it was how the industry operated back then. We can’t go back in time. Let’s move on.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

People who can't understand the difference between a bridge loan during a liquidity recession and what's happening now aren't worth listening to. Some people will complain s out anything, but some people will complain about EVERYTHING.

The only reason that ended up costing Canadians any money was because of s dumb decision to sell the GM shares to manipulate the budget shortfalls.

Surely you guys don't want the federal government to nationalize the oil patch or create some kind of National Energy Program? Just socialize the losses and privatize the profits? Orphaned wells for everyone!

I think we’ve socialized a lot of the benefit actually. For decades.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Would be interested in how the former execs of those companies made out.

Not really, as stated above, a lot of those wells are abandoned a long time ago, and while its all about the whole, look at all of these executives and how much they make, how about the owners and operators who lost everything? Do we want to talk about that as well?


Its a point that's not relevant at all to the current discussion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Also how much in taxpayer dollars has been paid out for cleanups of the mess in Ontario and the Great Lakes due to run away dumping and pollution, or to the mining industry which is incredibly noxious.


How much are we going to have to pay for the Quebec Asphalt plant that the Federal Government waived any kind of environmental assessment and generates just as much or more Greenhouse gas effect as the bigger operations in Fort McMurray.


Yes I get it, abandoned wells have to be cleaned up, but it seems in the minds of most people that are concerned about the environment they laser focus on one industry with is oil and gas, while giving all of the other heavy emitting heavy polluting sectors in this company a pass or completely ignore it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I think we’ve socialized a lot of the benefit actually. For decades.

awesome, let's keep doing it.

nationalize that oil wealth!

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

awesome, let's keep doing it.

nationalize that oil wealth!

Why?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

awesome, let's keep doing it.

nationalize that oil wealth!

Is the government building them all out in your scenario? Or just confiscating private projects?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

COVID-19 has led to massive demand destruction. O&G is getting pummeled from both sides.

Exactly...current demand is down something like 20m barrels a day. And even with restrictions lifted demand will increase slowly especially jet fuel.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Exactly...current demand is down something like 20m barrels a day. And even with restrictions lifted demand will increase slowly especially jet fuel.

I believe its 30M.

[Samonadreau]

$3 crude... hard to even fathom. Something has to give.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

$3 crude... hard to even fathom. Something has to give.

WCS looks like it was in the negative earlier today, like minus 78 cents. Right now sitting at 18 cents. Wow.