Kale Kessy severely injured in AHL fight- is it time to stop the music?

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL if NFL players had their way guys like Vontaze Burfict would still be taking the heads off receivers attempting to catch the ball in the middle of the field. There's a reason the NFL takes these matters in their own hands regardless of how much the players whine about the new rules. If construction sites didn't force workers to wear hard hats, safety glasses, and steel toe boots you can bet that plenty wouldn't which is why employers have to protect employees from themselves. Your argument wouldn't have sounded any better if it came from a child.

So do you have confidence in the current officials or player safety department to enforce strict, consistent rules?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Fighting will stay in the game as long as it is necessary. The NHL wont ban fighting. Like it.or not, it still has entertainment value to the majority. You're at least two generations away from fighting MAYBE being removed.

So my query is this, why the crusade against it?

The player signed up for this, and this isnt the NFL where once they're out they're done and dont get their contracts fulfilled.

They're compensated greatly to risk their well being and chose to do so freely. No one HAS to fight. Those who want to, will.

And I for one would hate to see dolts like Kassian not have his face punched in for some of the crap he pulls that are far more dangerous to other players well being than fighting.

Seeing as the NHL wheel of justice can miss the mark a lot of some grievous infractions. Or reffing in a game to game basis as so evidenced in ant GT on any forum anywhere.

A little self policing keeps this a little more honest on the ice.

So deal with it.

People keep on saying no one HAS to fight but that's too simplistic a view. There is tremendous pressure on enforcers to fight, or lose their spot in the league.
Many of them don't enjoy doing it. They dread it. They hated it.
Does that seem like a healthy part of the sport?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Look how fun fighting is!
At least these guys are "choosing" to do it themselves.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hocke...ries-1.5370444

"Wade is really hurt," the agent said.
"It was awful. I was called by multiple friends … they knew before I knew. But they didn't know what to say," Belak Liang said of the day she lost her husband to suicide.

As an NHL enforcer who played 14 seasons in the NHL, Belak "knew his role," said Belak Liang. "He didn't love it, but he was fine with it [because] he wanted to stay within the NHL and have his career.

"He told me: 'I can't stay here unless I fight.' "

[Jiri Hrdina]

Another good one to read:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en...ythings-not-ok

"I’ve thought about death a lot over the past few years.

About dying. And what it might be like if I wasn’t around.

I’ve struggled a ton since I retired from hockey in 2011, and I’ve faced a bunch of different personal demons. But recently I’ve been unable to shake thoughts of….

Steve Montador.

Wade Belak.

Derek Boogaard.

Rick Rypien.

I knew those guys. They were real people to me.

They played the same game I did, and when it was all said and done … they were really just suffering, man.

They struggled with depression and anxiety and substance abuse and just … pain. All of the things I’ve been dealing with. They went through some of the exact same stuff.

And now … I talk about them in the past tense. How they were my friends. And how they used to be my brothers.

They’re just … gone."

" And I can tell you that, yes, coaches do actually sometimes tap you on the back and tell you to get out there on the ice and fight. Whether you want to believe it or not, it happens.

And I was always game — right there at a moment’s notice, ready to oblige."

Do you think he could change that decision now if he could? I bet he would

More....

"I had it in my head that there was a specific way that hockey needed to be played. And there was a level honor to it, a certain pride that came along with kicking some ass.
I didn’t enjoy it, though. That’s for sure.

It’s what I did, and it paid the bills and allowed me to support my family. But I never loved it."

It's a goddamn waste of human life.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

People keep on saying on one HAS to fight but that's too simplistic a view. There is tremendous pressure on enforcers to fight, or lose their spot in the league.
Many of them don't enjoy doing it. They dread it. They hated it.
Does that seem like a healthy part of the sport?

It's not too simplistic. Jiri I understand this is your greatest passion about the game but I just dont see it leaving the game in our lifespan. Eventually maybe but not anytime soon.

And the enforcers you speak are pretty much done and gone, you're arguing against a freshly dead corpse. The McGratton era is gone.

Iggy said it himself, it's a part of the game , wished it wasnt but it regulates other bad behavior. And before you argue for numerical evidence. Take the word of a player who played the game and used fighting the proper way.

But I can see that this take is definitely falling on def ears. This is your thing man. Fight your fight but I disagree and have long disagreed with your take on fighting in the NHL. The goon era is gone. And the "bell answering" era will fade away too eventually. But fighting will still go on in some fashion.

[Jiri Hrdina]

More.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...rticle4180234/

The Montreal Canadiens two years ago let go of their last enforcer, Georges Laraque, one of the NHL's top heavyweights who has admitted he hated fighting and wanted no more to do with it.

Canadiens scoring winger Michael Cammalleri says that feeling is not uncommon.

"Almost all the guys I've played with in that heavyweight fighter role usually end up not really loving their identity and struggling with what their role really is and actually despise fighting, at some point in their career," he said.

"Usually they come into the league and they're really willing to do it and they just want to make the league and get a paycheque and they're cool with that role and they kind of like it. And usually fairly quickly they start disliking that role and want to be much more than that and actually don't want to fight."

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's not too simplistic. Jiri I understand this is your greatest passion about the game but I just dont see it leaving the game in our lifespan. Eventually maybe but not anytime soon.

And the enforcers you speak are pretty much done and gone, you're arguing against a freshly dead corpse. The McGratton era is gone.

Iggy said it himself, it's a part of the game , wished it wasnt but it regulates other bad behavior. And before you argue for numerical evidence. Take the word of a player who played the game and used fighting the proper way.

But I can see that this take is definitely falling on def ears. This is your thing man. Fight your fight but I disagree and have long disagreed with your take on fighting in the NHL. The goon era is gone. And the "bell answering" era will fade away too eventually. But fighting will still go on in some fashion.

Yup I know we wont agree but I respect that you at least are willing to discuss in a respectful manner.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Dion

The Heritage Junior B League has some excellent rules to curb fighting during a game.





http://heritagejunior.com/leagues/cu...9&pageID=13369

Why is there fighting in this league at all? It's like a tier 3 hockey League.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's not too simplistic. Jiri I understand this is your greatest passion about the game but I just dont see it leaving the game in our lifespan. Eventually maybe but not anytime soon.

And the enforcers you speak are pretty much done and gone, you're arguing against a freshly dead corpse. The McGratton era is gone.

Iggy said it himself, it's a part of the game , wished it wasnt but it regulates other bad behavior. And before you argue for numerical evidence. Take the word of a player who played the game and used fighting the proper way.

But I can see that this take is definitely falling on def ears. This is your thing man. Fight your fight but I disagree and have long disagreed with your take on fighting in the NHL. The goon era is gone. And the "bell answering" era will fade away too eventually. But fighting will still go on in some fashion.

Of course it will go on.
They fight in football.
They fight in baseball.
A few times a year.
Its just not legal. So you are ejected, and maybe face further discipline.
But it still goes on.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

People keep on saying no one HAS to fight but that's too simplistic a view. There is tremendous pressure on enforcers to fight, or lose their spot in the league.
Many of them don't enjoy doing it. They dread it. They hated it.
Does that seem like a healthy part of the sport?

Does anyone carry a heavy weight anymore? Those people were phased out.

And let’s face the facts. They would never have been in the NHL to begin with without being able to chuck the knuckles. So those player who “had to fight to keep my job” probably are happy they played at all. The next Georges Laraque isn’t getting a shot at playing anymore.

Plus there are leagues where there’s no fighting. Can always switch to them.

[stang]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Of course it will go on.
They fight in football.
They fight in baseball.
A few times a year.
Its just not legal. So you are ejected, and maybe face further discipline.
But it still goes on.

It’s not legal in Hockey either. You get a penalty

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by stang

It’s not legal in Hockey either. You get a penalty

Not much of a deterrent.

I agree it’s not going anywhere, and hypocritically I’m excited when one occurs. But there is really no rational reason for it. I dispute it cuts down on dirty play, and I don’t think its an integral part of hockey (otherwise you’d see way more in the POs).

I think after a while it will become so rare that they will feel they can eliminate it (i.e. players get ejected for fighting).

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

More.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...rticle4180234/

The Montreal Canadiens two years ago let go of their last enforcer, Georges Laraque, one of the NHL's top heavyweights who has admitted he hated fighting and wanted no more to do with it.

Canadiens scoring winger Michael Cammalleri says that feeling is not uncommon.

"Almost all the guys I've played with in that heavyweight fighter role usually end up not really loving their identity and struggling with what their role really is and actually despise fighting, at some point in their career," he said.

"Usually they come into the league and they're really willing to do it and they just want to make the league and get a paycheque and they're cool with that role and they kind of like it. And usually fairly quickly they start disliking that role and want to be much more than that and actually don't want to fight."

Wasnt Laraque one of the ones saying Tkachuk should have answered the bell against Kassian and was all about the code.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's not too simplistic. Jiri I understand this is your greatest passion about the game but I just dont see it leaving the game in our lifespan. Eventually maybe but not anytime soon.

And the enforcers you speak are pretty much done and gone, you're arguing against a freshly dead corpse. The McGratton era is gone.

Iggy said it himself, it's a part of the game , wished it wasnt but it regulates other bad behavior. And before you argue for numerical evidence. Take the word of a player who played the game and used fighting the proper way.

But I can see that this take is definitely falling on def ears. This is your thing man. Fight your fight but I disagree and have long disagreed with your take on fighting in the NHL. The goon era is gone. And the "bell answering" era will fade away too eventually. But fighting will still go on in some fashion.

* Iggy, in spite of usually using fighting the proper way, is also, well, kinda full of ####

Conroy told stories about Iggy sitting on the bench saying he was going to go out and ‘fight that guy’

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

* Iggy, in spite of usually using fighting the proper way, is also, well, kinda full of ####

Conroy told stories about Iggy sitting on the bench saying he was going to go out and ‘fight that guy’

True. In 2004 he took those PO fights mostly to fire up the team, not because, say Ohlund, was taking liberties.

[timbit]

The code or reason for fighting :

Gain or regain momentum.

Stand up for a teammate.

[Patek23]

Fighting is already not allowed. I don’t see any reason to change where it’s at or increase the penalty or make it a suspension worthy offence. It’s already a rare occurrence and the amount of players injured this year due to just about every other kind of hockey play including just losing your footing when your skating so fast FAR out way any of the injuries from fighting that have happened.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It effects my enjoyment of my favorite sport. I don't like watching two people bash their brains in. I did not enjoy watching one of my favorite players ever (Montador) die at the age of 35.

We don't need it in the sport.
It's savage, disgusting violence that doesn't accomplish anything.
And it WILL be eliminated. I am 100% sure of that.
The shame is that more will suffer and die because it didn't happen sooner.
Your comparisons are irrelevant.

Did I miss something? Chances are Steve's concussion problems were from hockey hits not fights, should we ban hitting?

This is stupid, other than this Kessy guy getting tagged on the chin name one other concussion injury this year from a fight, Jesus, name one the last 5 years. And if you do find one I'll find 25 more concussions from hockey hits.

[united]

Well this rant went way longer than I expected

tl;dr:
- I love fighting, but fighting in hockey sucks.
- But not as much as the Department of Player Safety does.
- And definitely not as much as the officials do.


I will preface this by saying I love fighting. I watch professional fighting every week, whether boxing, UFC, Bellator, Rizen, even local semi-pro events here in Calgary. While some - arguably correctly - call fighting in this day barbaric, to me hand-to-hand combat is the original sport of mankind and will never disappear and will never stop being practiced by humans around the world, nor should it.

Tyson Fury - Deontay Wilder II last weekend? Appointment viewing.
Paul Felder - Dan Hooker, also last week? Absolutely I tuned in (sad to see Felder lose).
Tomorrow I hope the Flames-Lightning game finishes in time to watch one of my up-and-coming favourites, Luis "Voilent Bob Ross" Pena make the walk, and you bet I won't be missing one of my longtime favourites, Joey Benavidez, winning the strap in the main event.
Khabib Nurmagomedov - Tony Ferguson coming up in April, on a Saturday night in the middle of the first round of the NHL playoffs? That will be a very tough decision on watching live or not. Sure hoping the Flames are not playing that night.
Floyd Mayweather and Pernell Whittaker? Breathtaking defensive tacticians.

All that said, I couldn't care less about fighting in hockey. As a Flames season ticket holder, I don't stand up or cheer for fights. Watching on TV, I look at my phone during fights. I see them as another stoppage in play similar to a commercial break or icing. Largely they are unskilled battles more akin to a 2:00 AM bar fight than a fight utilizing basic and solid fundamentals. Obviously the (lack of) balance is a large part of that, but the one fighter I thoroughly enjoyed watching at the NHL level, despite being a member of the disgusting Canucks, was the late Rick Rypien, whom, despite being one of the smallest players in the league, held his own against all sizes of opponent by way of displaying a propensity for utilizing the jab, utilizing his shoulders as shields, working the body, understanding the fundamentals of the centre line - a joy to watch and I'll never forget him bobble-heading Brandon Prust. As another post said, the jersey grabbing in hockey fights is the dumbest part and as far as I'm concerned should be an immediate end to the fight. If you want to square up and throw hands, do it! Grabbing another player's jersey and doing up the seatbelt to jersey-jab each other is a waste of everyone's time. Thankfully the human seatbelt, Zack Stortini, wasn't in the league long as that guy wasted everyone's time FFS.

I watch the NHL because I want to see the best hockey players in the world flying around on sharp blades, displaying a remarkable ability to balance and make tactical decisions on the fly in portions of a second. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch the NFL because I love the tactical variety of play calling and personnel decisions, and the absolutely insane athleticism of the athletes. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch soccer because, well, it's the beautiful game, which is usually all that needs to be said. The most tactical sport in the world and the constant tactical evolution is something hockey could take note of, and will over the next couple decades. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch rugby because of the respect (usually) shown amongst competitors in the middle of a physical war. What a fantastic sport. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch basketball because seeing humans that height do what they do, and the speed they move, is astounding. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch auto racing because the attention to detail required for hours on end, without interruption, at the speed and stress they deal with, is unfathomable. Not because I want to see a fight.

I watch boxing and MMA, because I want to see the best fighters in the world ply their craft. Not because I want to see a game of keep-away, HORSE, or a drag race breakout part way through. Obviously an idiotic comparison, but many would argue fighting in hockey is idiotic.


What the NHL needs to take seriously and significantly ramp up is player discipline. Fighting an unwilling combatant is not only dishounorable but a complete disgrace, especially in retaliation for a rule-abiding play. What Kassian did to Tkachuk, for example, should have been a 10- if not 20-game suspension. If you want to fight another man, square up, don't grab him from behind and punch an unsuspecting downed opponent. Another example is Darnell Nurse on Roman Polak from a couple years ago which somehow wasn't a double-digit suspension. The instigator penalty should come with an automatic in-person hearing going forward.

Those saying the outright removal of - or significant penalty for - fighting will result in more dirty/rat plays are absolutely correct. That is, until the NHL starts taking player safety seriously which lets all be honest they have no real interest in doing. Zdeno Chara, making $2 million this season and with over $100 million in career earnings getting fined $5,000 for cross-checking another player in the face is simply hysterical. What kind of discouragement is that? With the boner the players have for re-attending the winter Olympics, what the owners should be doing is negotiating real player safety mechanisms in exchange for participation.
- One- or two-game suspensions should be the norm for egregious fouls, for example. Costing players' pocket books and teams' lineups will quickly lead to corrective behaviour.
- In-person hearings should be increased to incidents of 10+ games, and suspension of the 3- to 5-game range should be much more common.
- Fouls deemed worthy of financial penalty, but not game-level discipline, should be levied at rates such as 1/2-game fine or 1/4-game fine. If you're making $10 million/season and commit a fine-worthy foul, enjoy your 1/2 game fine of $60,000. If you make $700,000/season, your fine is $4,000. As things stand now, fines are standard regardless of compensation - Connor McDavid receiving a $5,000 fine this season is an laughable 0.03% of his compensation.
- Coaches and GMs should also be held financially accountable for signing/dressing repeat offenders. If the Edmonton Oilers want to keep dressing Zack Kassian and he keeps acting like a loose cannon, both coach and GM should face financial penalties of increasing severity for each infraction going forward.
- And finally, and perhaps the easiest fix: Actually hold officials who have a long track record of being bottom-tier performers accountable. Dean Morton, for example, has been officiating the NHL for 20 seasons and has been selected to officiate the playoffs once. 1/20 seasons! How is that acceptable? His ass should have been fired a decade ago, yet the NHL caves to the officials' association. I don't buy the argument nobody wants to officiate, either, considering the $200,000 USD salary - that's just a simple way out.

My favourite line regarding the designated tough guy role is the classic "(team) needs (tough guy) to prevent (other team's tough guy) from taking liberties on our players" whereby invariably both tough guys will at some point commit the liberty they are allegedly there to prevent each other from committing. Take out the #### heads and the ####housery doesn't occur - very difficult concept.

[Flash Walken]

Great post as usual, United.

I also very much enjoy combat sports, big MMA fan.

I don't watch hockey for fighting. I watch fighting for fighting.

There are no shortage of ways to watch fights, I don't need it in hockey.

It is so dumb in my mind. Bare knuckle boxing on ice with razor blades. If you say it out loud it sounds like a MadTV sketch.