Kale Kessy severely injured in AHL fight- is it time to stop the music?

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Wow, you must've felt really great sticking it to a woman making minimum wage who has no say in those decisions.
She'll think twice before she answers your questions again.

What did the manager say when you asked to speak to him?

Yea I was really giving her the business, and I held up the whole drive thru line as I was hurling insults at her. I just thought it was funy.

Jeez man, I was having a conversation with the lady at the window while I was wait for my order. She was proud of the paper straws working in a resteraunt that turns out far more plastic items then just plastic straws. The fact that some A&W executive thought about being more environmentally friendly, looked at their cups and thought about eliminating plastic by replacing the straw without looking at what the straw goes through is the stupid part, not the lady that I was talking to. And it was never a confrontational conversation, despite your implication that it was from the tone of your post and profound understanding of the situation (I am actually wondering if you are the drive thru lady?) It wasn't described as such from my post. But go ahead, flame away.

[GioforPM]

Iginla's justification is one I hear all the time, but there's no fighting in lots of sports and players don't take extra liberties. And back when fighting was more prevalent the injuries weren't less common than now. Ask Ted Green if there wasn't much high sticking way back when.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

Yea I was really giving her the business, and I held up the whole drive thru line as I was hurling insults at her. I just thought it was funy.

Jeez man, I was having a conversation with the lady at the window while I was wait for my order. She was proud of the paper straws working in a resteraunt that turns out far more plastic items then just plastic straws. The fact that some A&W executive thought about being more environmentally friendly, looked at their cups and thought about eliminating plastic by replacing the straw without looking at what the straw goes through is the stupid part, not the lady that I was talking to. And it was never a confrontational conversation, despite your implication that it was from the tone of your post and profound understanding of the situation (I am actually wondering if you are the drive thru lady?) It wasn't described as such from my post. But go ahead, flame away.

If you are interested at all, supposedly plastic lids can be recycled but plastic straws are too small to be put into the machines they use for that.

Plus imperfect solution is better than no solution at all anyway.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

That's not really relevant.
Just because other parts of the sport are dangerous, that's not relevant in determining the necessity and danger of fighting.

That's like the old "I know guns kill people, but so do knives & hammers, are we gonna ban those too?"

ok... so did the rest of my post you didn't include not answer why I thought it was relevant?

[...]

The point, and we can discuss it without the hysteria of death, is... was it part of the game? In cases like this one, I believe the answer is no.

Fighting being allowed in the game seems necessary sometimes when things boil over. A lot is happening out there and a lot of player safety relies on respect. If a hard hit, the scoreboard, or the refs aren't earning that respect... a good punch in the chops is an effort to take control. But a fight for giggles or to 'turn the momentum' can go in my opinion.

Problem is... how? If you remove fighting, you better make sure you're officiating the game a lot better than you are now or I fear that you'll see a lot more liberties taken on the ice. So those of you who are still comfortable watching a player get stretchered off the ice with an oxygen mask over his face, I have one question for you. Y’all know somebody is going to die from a dirty elbow someday, right?

So the point is, as with other dangerous parts of the game, it is a necessary part of the game today.

I'm not defending fighting, but it's talking about banning guns while I still have a bear problem...

[Split98]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Iginla's justification is one I hear all the time, but there's no fighting in lots of sports and players don't take extra liberties. And back when fighting was more prevalent the injuries weren't less common than now. Ask Ted Green if there wasn't much high sticking way back when.

Watch some Astros games this year...

I'll bet liberties and fights will be pretty common, and again... all in response to penalties deemed to be too light

[PeteMoss]

I'm not a big fighting guy, but was the guy severely injured or just knocked out? Severely injured makes me think he's fighting for his life or something.

He was out of the hospital a day later and probably just kept for precaution after a big concussive blow.

[Ped]

That fight was absolutely disgusting to watch. Like two boxers who were wearing skates.



Had nothing to do with the play or the game. Just two guys fighting who think they are supposed to.


Yeah there are fighters out there that love it but that doesn't mean it has a place in today's game.


It needs to go.

[FlamingHomer]

I'm a combative sports official and what I would like to see in hockey fights is NO grabbing an opponent by the scruff of the neck and pulling their head into the punch. They should go toe to toe and if a punch is thrown the head would be allowed to respond back, cushioning the blow somewhat. Also most head injuries are caused by a player pulling his opponent to the ice. This would hopefully eliminate that. There should be a 5 minute holding penalty if a player strikes an opponent while holding him.
I don't know of any other sport where holding a shirt and punching is allowed.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

Yea I was really giving her the business, and I held up the whole drive thru line as I was hurling insults at her. I just thought it was funy.

Jeez man, I was having a conversation with the lady at the window while I was wait for my order. She was proud of the paper straws working in a resteraunt that turns out far more plastic items then just plastic straws. The fact that some A&W executive thought about being more environmentally friendly, looked at their cups and thought about eliminating plastic by replacing the straw without looking at what the straw goes through is the stupid part, not the lady that I was talking to. And it was never a confrontational conversation, despite your implication that it was from the tone of your post and profound understanding of the situation (I am actually wondering if you are the drive thru lady?) It wasn't described as such from my post. But go ahead, flame away.

Confrontational or not, it's a jerk move to put her in that position.
What is she supposed to do when you start in with a "Gotcha" routine about using less plastic? All you're doing is making someone, who's job it is to wait on you, uncomfortable.

Don't do bits on people working for tips, and don't call out your philosophical issues with a fast food joint to the person at the drive through.
In short, don't put captive service workers into uncomfortable situations because you think it's funny.

As for the plastic itself, sure, they haven't reduced their plastic use to zero, does that make it stupid?
Are they using less plastic? Yup, but I guess you think it's not perfect so why bother.

To bring that all back to fightin, all I'm seeing on the pro fighting argument is "If we take fighting out, something else might get worse"

Stated another way "It'll never be perfect, so why bother".

And all those arguments about policing the game are completely ignoring every other sport in the world, except lacrosse I guess.

I played rugby for a long time. There's a hell of a lot more hitting in a rugby game, and a hell of a lot more opportunities to take cheap shots (bottoms of rucks and mauls where no one can even see you), and the fact that you aren't allowed to square off and punch a guy in the face didn't result in every game devolving into 80 minutes of guys taking cheap shots at each other.

Sure sometimes games got out of hand, so I guess the no fighting rule isn't prefect, guess we should just allow mid match boxing and see if that clears things up?

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If you are interested at all, supposedly plastic lids can be recycled but plastic straws are too small to be put into the machines they use for that.

Plus imperfect solution is better than no solution at all anyway.

There are compostable straws that are made out of plastic-like material, and the lids on the cups can be made from the same stuff. The reason that their not is because it costs more. They have also found a way to turn used fryer oil into a compostable plastic that can be used for things like 3D printing for something like an 1/8th of the cost of the standard plastic material. McDonalds is involved in that. A&W changed their straws to paper so they could visually look like they were doing something for the environment, in the least impactful way possible. Anyways, for the record, I like a&w, I like the drive thru lady, I like the environment, but I dislike hypocrisy, b/s half-measures as virtue signalling publicity stunts, and rainy days.

[btimbit]

The big lay 'em out hits are a much bigger issue than fights imo. In a fight you at least know what to expect and are usually a willing combatant. Laying out a vulnerable player in a blindside hit, on the other hand, is very different and involves a much bigger force.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It seems pretty clearly to me the former. This video was made over three years ago, and Rinaldo and Lucic hadn't played a single game with Gaudreau since just this past fall. After that game in Minnesota in which Gaudreau had his finger broken, the Flames met with the League and they aired their grievances about it. I am supremely confident that if there was any dramatic change (I am not convinced there has been) it had everything to do with this, and nothing to do with the arrival of two on-ice enforcers three years later.



The only reason anyone thinks it is necessary is because we have been steeped in a century-old culture that has enabled this aspect of the game to fester needlessly. The solution is to alter the way people think about the game, think within the game, and to drill in to everyone once and for all that fighting is just not acceptable in any non-life-threatening context.

Just me, no data. But I feel like that video demonstrated a pretty common game for Johnny up to this year. My apologies if it was not an issue last year as well, but I feel like it was. That specific game was just a good example in my mind of the issue that wasn't policed by the league or the players, and resulted in an injury. It was a time where I thought someone on the team needed to police this themselves to protect Johnny.

If it's officiating this year I do hope you're right, and it's the inevitable path for the sport. Someday, they were going to have to get this right, and when they do, the reason for fighting is minimized on it's own.

And I don't think it's necessary based purely on culture - I think it's a dangerous sport that relies very heavily on respect. If that respect isn't demanded through the league, the players police on the ice. If it's not a fight, I fear the other retaliation options are more dangerous.

But I agree, the solution is absolutely to alter how we think about the game. In no way do I hope to be promoting the need for fighting, I'm just recognizing that until there is a proper deterrent for dangerous plays a punch to the face is the best they have

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

There are compostable straws that are made out of plastic-like material, and the lids on the cups can be made from the same stuff. The reason that their not is because it costs more. They have also found a way to turn used fryer oil into a compostable plastic that can be used for things like 3D printing for something like an 1/8th of the cost of the standard plastic material. McDonalds is involved in that. A&W changed their straws to paper so they could visually look like they were doing something for the environment, in the least impactful way possible. Anyways, for the record, I like a&w, I like the drive thru lady, I like the environment, but I dislike hypocrisy, b/s half-measures as virtue signalling publicity stunts, and rainy days.

Do you know why they look like they are doing something for the environment?
Because they are.

Could they do more? Of course, literally every human, and company could do more.
At what scale do you think doing something isn't hypocritical BS?

You want them to do more, but you're sitting in the drive through, idling, and burning gas.
Why didn't you walk, and bring your own cup?
You could be doing a lot more, so isn't you saying they aren't doing enough just a bunch of hypocrical virtue signalling BS?

[Strange Brew]

Is this a discussion about making the game safer? Or about getting rid of fighting? Because I don’t see those as the same things.

The questionI ask myself is whether the game is safe enough today and if not, what would I change? And I think it’s worth asking if we are talking about the game itself, or only professional leagues.

Hockey is a dangerous sport. I think about it a lot as my son has played competitively for about 10 years. I have seen some bad injuries that didn’t have anything to do with fighting. What scares me the most about hockey and getting injured? The boards.

[Joborule]

One big difference between hockey and other sports, is that every player has a hockey stick, which can be used as a weapon. Since the NHL is a very physical and fast paced game, it's easy for players to get heated and retaliate impulsively. So players use it to antagonize (and hurt) other players, and get away with it since the refs don't call these penalties consistently enough. With fighting in place, there's at least a form of self policing that's in place to deter from those tactics being in more frequent.

If fighting is going to be eliminated - which is a matter of when - the officiating in the league needs to change considerably, and there can no longer be biased game management calls. They have to be very strict and what is a infraction or not, and heavily discourage any stick on body infractions, as well scrums that occur after the whistle. They would have to have a fairly authoritarian approach to ensure that they have control, and will be aware of any fouls that players try to get away with to instigate opponents. Otherwise, pests are going to benefit from the lack of self policing.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Do you know why they look like they are doing something for the environment?
Because they are.

Are they? there's a lot of debate about plastic vs paper and enviornmental impact.

But back on track, fighting has run its course. MMA fills that niche nicely.

[Red_Baron]

The opportunities to injure an opponent in hockey are astronomically higher than any other sport.

There is no other sport where you have 2 teams moving at these types of speed carrying a potential weapon in their hands so you really can't compare it to any other sport.



My solution is to have off-ice officials who can review plays and assess penalties in-game. It would have to be after a whistle that the penalty is assessed but it would be better than the current systems at curtailing tempers on-ice.

[SportsJunky]

I think it's different if the player is known to you. I enjoy a hockey fight but I can remember watching guys I hung out with having fights in junior and I'd be just cringing. All I could think of was how we were all out at a party the night before and now hes getting the brakes beat off him by some monster on skates. Hated watching friends go through that.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Joborule

One big difference between hockey and other sports, is that every player has a hockey stick, which can be used as a weapon. Since the NHL is a very physical and fast paced game, it's easy for players to get heated and retaliate impulsively. So players use it to antagonize (and hurt) other players, and get away with it since the refs don't call these penalties consistently enough. With fighting in place, there's at least a form of self policing that's in place to deter from those tactics being in more frequent.
.

What proof is there that fighting is effective as a deterrent?
This is one of the most common arguments for fighting, yet I have not seen anything that actually proves this to be true.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What proof is there that fighting is effective as a deterrent?
This is one of the most common arguments for fighting, yet I have not seen anything that actually proves this to be true.

I know for a fact when I knew the opposing player was a known to be able to drop the gloves to defend himself, I wouldn’t be as chippy towards him. Many of the players I know who have gone on to play at an even higher level feel the same way.

As well as knowing there was a tough hombre on the team does make the rest of the players play bigger. At least in my experience on the ice. Many players have stated the same. Now that is not related to deterrence but am just speaking of the impact of having someone who can throw them on the team.