63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[afc wimbledon]

I also remember watching a fascinating documentary on dogfights in Vietnam war where they discovered that Pilots under adrenaline where unaware of 70% of the information they were being presented with, that they would tend to only be aware of a very limited amount of information and would completely miss vital radar contacts and not hear air traffic instructions or directions from their wing leaders at all for several minutes at a time.

They were just completely focused on one small part of the experiance

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

"Hey guys, don't forget the US is bad"

Everyone is bad, the US is just really, really, powerful.

[CaptainCrunch]

It was probably more then just Adrenalin.


Flight Surgeon - "Hey Bob you ready for your night patrol?"


Bob - "Yup yup"


Flight Surgeon - "Great here are your 2 caffeine pills each one is like a 100 cups of coffee. Oh and here's your liquid amphetamine, kind of kicks like a mule there."


Bob takes them - "Holy crap my heart is beating through my head and I want to murder a small child"


Flight Surgeon - "That's just you hitting flavor country, good luck"

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

One of the things that was found after the USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian airliner is that they were also aware that their equipment was telling them it was an airliner and civilian, to the extent they tried to make radio contact with the airliner and tell it to alter course, but under the high stress situation they decided to ignore everything their equipment was telling them and shoot down what they were perfectly aware was an airliner anyway because it might be a threat.

C'mon...

This is such a distortion of the truth. The Vincennes could not identify the aircraft as either civilian or military and attempted communication on both frequencies. The civilian plane could not pick up the military communications. They did not think that the civilian communications were directed at them and carried on towards the warship, which is what made the Vicennes think the plan was attacking them. Flight 655 was shot down at a distance that it could not be identified and was coming in at a lower than normal altitude. At no point did the US confirm it was a civilian plane. Were they horribly reckless, because it could (and was) a civilian plane? of course.

Can you also not see the difference in the way the governments are dealing with this. The USA initially made a statement stating they'd shot down a military aircraft, but then revoked that statement and admitted hitting the civilian craft....within a few hours.

Iran denied everything until they got caught red handed on video. Then they went around arresting their own civilians for filming the incident.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

C'mon...

This is such a distortion of the truth. The Vincennes could not identify the aircraft as either civilian or military and attempted communication on both frequencies. The civilian plane could not pick up the military communications. They did not think that the civilian communications were directed at them and carried on towards the warship, which is what made the Vicennes think the plan was attacking them. Flight 655 was shot down at a distance that it could not be identified and was coming in at a lower than normal altitude. At no point did the US confirm it was a civilian plane. Were they horribly reckless, because it could (and was) a civilian plane? of course.

Can you also not see the difference in the way the governments are dealing with this. The USA initially made a statement stating they'd shot down a military aircraft, but then revoked that statement and admitted hitting the civilian craft....within a few hours.

Iran denied everything until they got caught red handed on video. Then they went around arresting their own civilians for filming the incident.

The Vinncennes received the mode 3 Comair response from the airliner, identifying it as civilian, they reported to the captain it could be an airliner, they attempted to contact the plane because their electronics had told them it was civilian.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Baron von Kriterium

No. I didn't write that and it isn't accurate. I wrote a bunch of other speculation which appears to have been wrong hahaha. Anyway...

My apologies, I don’t know how I got that.

[CaptainCrunch]

So just looking at the Coles notes on the Vincennes incident


There was a discepency with the crew about weather the plane was sending a IFF Mod II (Military) or IFF Mod III Civilian transponder signal. It was decided that it was using an Mod III.


The Vincennes monitored the jetliner immediately after takeoff and received a short Mod II signal, on takeoff the Jetliner also had the look of a profile of an F-14 tomcat in attack profile. The Vincennes attempted to communicate on 121.5 MHZ which is the international distress frequency, that all planes in the area were supposed to monitor. They attempted to communicate 10 separate times and received no communication. They attempted 3 more communications on the Iranian Air Defense frequency to warn off the plane and received no reply to that. With no communication, and the question of the Mod II signal that they originally picked up they evaluated the Jet Liner as a Iranian F-14 in an attack profile. That was the original story.


However in the investigation, the tapes showed that the liner was emitting the mod three and ascending. The American's concluded that the bridge crew basically fell back on their training and ignored key sensor data due to scenario fulfillment.



However the question has been why the jet liner didn't receive the 13 warnings for wave off and identification.

[FlameOn]

Iranian Republican Guard arrests the person who uploaded the videos showing missiles striking PS752.

The Iranian citizen who published a video showing a missile hitting a Ukrainian airliner over Tehran has been arrested, according to the Iranian Fars news agency.
The results of the investigation will presented to the public, Fars said, without providing additional details.The Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps have taken responsibility for the missile strike which caused the plane crash, killing all 176 people aboard.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1217163279795150848

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/...n-plane-614171

[CaptainCrunch]

The desert will be well fertilized

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The Vinncennes received the mode 3 Comair response from the airliner, identifying it as civilian, they reported to the captain it could be an airliner, they attempted to contact the plane because their electronics had told them it was civilian.

This is once again a bizarre interpretation of the fact.

The fact they attempted a civilian communication does not mean they confirmed it was civilian. They sent out 3 civilian communication and 7 military ones.

Also the flight was broadcasting a Mode III squawk, but this is not a response. This is an automatic transmission from the plane. The Iranian plane received the transmissions from the US, but did not respond to them. The problem with the automatic squawks is that they can create confusion about who is sending the signal, especially when there are many signals in one area. The Vincennes had also received military sqawks form the same area.

You also need to start checking your wikipedia sources:

From the article in the wikipedia page:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a..._flight655.php

"The situation aboard the Vincennes that day was one of confusion and disorder. The story told by the data tapes is straightforward. Iran Air Flight 655 took off from Bandar Abbas at 10:17 a.m. on the morning of July 3, on a heading of 210 (runway 21). Squawking Mode III, Code 6760 continuously, it kept on a more or less constant heading of 210, climbing steadily to its cruising altitude while gradually gaining speed. Data and testimony from the USS Sides corroborate the flight path and the Mode III IFF squawk. Indeed, the Sides was to identify the unknown aircraft as non-hostile and turn its attention elsewhere only seconds before the Vincennes launched its missiles.

The story told by those inside the CIC aboard the Vincennes is quite different. From the first alerted contact, various personnel began to report a "Mode II" squawk on a code associated with Iranian F-14s. Although none of the data recorders reported any IFF response other than Mode III, Code 6760, those aboard the Vincennes continued to consistently misreport the signal.

As the range closed, the Vincennes began to broadcast increasingly urgent warning messages to the unknown aircraft; at first, these were general challenges on both military and international civil distress nets. But as the notion that the aircraft was indeed an F-14 became fixed in the minds of the key operators, the challenges were made more specific and were addressed only to an unidentified "Iranian F-14." A quick thumb-through of a listing of commercial flights missed the clear listing for Flight 655, although it was on course and nearly on time."

So basically the issue is whether or not the USA properly interpreted the sqawk. However, there was definitely no response from the airliner.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The Vinncennes received the mode 3 Comair response from the airliner, identifying it as civilian, they reported to the captain it could be an airliner, they attempted to contact the plane because their electronics had told them it was civilian.

I guess you can't see the difference.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

This is once again a bizarre interpretation of the fact.

The fact they attempted a civilian communication does not mean they confirmed it was civilian. They sent out 3 civilian communication and 7 military ones.

Also the flight was broadcasting a Mode III squawk, but this is not a response. This is an automatic transmission from the plane. The Iranian plane received the transmissions from the US, but did not respond to them. The problem with the automatic squawks is that they can create confusion about who is sending the signal, especially when there are many signals in one area. The Vincennes had also received military sqawks form the same area.

You also need to start checking your wikipedia sources:

From the article in the wikipedia page:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a..._flight655.php



So basically the issue is whether or not the USA properly interpreted the sqawk. However, there was definitely no response from the airliner.

The point I was trying to make was they were perfectly aware it could be civilian, they decided to shoot it down any way, not because they were evil murdering b***** but because under stress they almost certainly subconsciously decided to ignore the fact it might be full of women and children and choose the pathway that would protect them the most and, more importantly the pathway that would allow them to act, to assume it was military.

This is how adrenaline and the fight flight response works, it changes our perception of the world around us without us knowing, the idea of doing nothing, neither fighting nor fleeing is almost impossible at that point.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The point I was trying to make was they were perfectly aware it could be civilian, they decided to shoot it down any way, not because they were evil murdering b***** but because under stress they almost certainly subconsciously decided to ignore the fact it might be full of women and children and choose the pathway that would protect them the most and, more importantly the pathway that would allow them to act, to assume it was military.

This is how adrenaline and the fight flight response works, it changes our perception of the world around us without us knowing, the idea of doing nothing, neither fighting nor fleeing is almost impossible at that point.

Very few posters in this thread are arguing that the climate created by Trump wasn't a contributing factor.

However, there is clearly something going on with the investigation, and clearly something that Iran is hiding. It could just be that they don't want to admit how grossly incompetent they are.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Very few posters in this thread are arguing that the climate created by Trump wasn't a contributing factor.

However, there is clearly something going on with the investigation, and clearly something that Iran is hiding. It could just be that they don't want to admit how grossly incompetent they are.

That would be my guess, they are after all a regime with their survival at risk who have not had to be honest about much of anything with their own citizens since 1977.

No Government willingly admits its incompetency but the more at risk of falling the more a Government will try to cover up an issue, the irony of course is it is usually the getting caught lying that brings the regime down.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

That would be my guess, they are after all a regime with their survival at risk who have not had to be honest about much of anything with their own citizens since 1977.

No Government willingly admits its incompetency but the more at risk of falling the more a Government will try to cover up an issue, the irony of course is it is usually the getting caught lying that brings the regime down.

Here's the question. If this is the final straw for Iran's dictatorship, do you give Trump credit?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Here's the question. If this is the final straw for Iran's dictatorship, do you give Trump credit?

maybe and no, bringing down a regime isn't the problem, what follows it is.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

Flight 655 was shot down at a distance that it could not be identified and was coming in at a lower than normal altitude.

I don't believe this to be true? I believe there was nothing extraordinary about their flight plan.

[Manhattanboy]

CBC had a good interview last night with a Canadian litigation lawyer in Australia who has represented victims of Iranian terror in the past and actually been successful in obtaining judgment against and recovering damages from the regime.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I don't believe this to be true? I believe there was nothing extraordinary about their flight plan.

The flight was going to Dubai, so the airliner was never supposed to reach full altitude. It was to climb to 14,000 feet, cruise, and then begin descent. So it was the normal flight from Tehran to Dubai, but climbed much lower than most commercial flights would (31-38,000 feet). It did not help that the Iranian government was using the airport that 655 came out of as a military airport as well, and launched both commercial and military aircraft from the same site.

[flylock shox]

I don't imagine there's a single poster on this board who is working with their own personal knowledge or memory of the Vincennes incident, and who is not simply relying on stuff they're finding online. From what I can see, and as I referenced earlier in this thread, it seems the general consensus among online sources is that the US response to the Vincennes incident was entirely unsatisfactory, at least initially.

Here's a bit from Slate generated after Russia shot down the Malaysian airlines plane:

In several ways, the two calamities are similar. The Malaysian Boeing 777 wandered into a messy civil war in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border; the Iranian Airbus A300 wandered into a naval skirmish—one of many clashes in the ongoing “Tanker War” (another forgotten conflict)—in the Strait of Hormuz. The likely pro-Russia rebel thought that he was shooting at a Ukrainian military-transport plane; the U.S. Navy captain, Will Rogers III, mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet. The Russian SA-11 surface-to-air missile that downed the Malaysian plane killed 298 passengers, including 80 children; the American SM-2 surface-to-air missile that downed the Iranian plane killed 290 passengers, including 66 children. After last week’s incident, Russian officials told various lies to cover up their culpability and blamed the Ukrainian government; after the 1988 incident, American officials told various lies and blamed the Iranian pilot. Not until eight years later did the U.S. government compensate the victims’ families, and even then expressed “deep regret,” not an apology.

Iran's initial response, much like that of the US 30 years ago, is understandable. The protests that have taken place in Iran after its admission of fault show the type of considerations the regime likely has to balance in handling incidents like this.