[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[Poe969]

If the flyers just miss the playoffs and win the lottery, you'd have to think they would move the pick for immediate help. It's not always bottom 5 teams getting top 5 picks anymore.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think some of the so-called best players are committed to doing what they need to on and off the ice to win. It's easy to hate to lose, it's hard to commit to winning. I think Johnny isn't committed to winning. And I think teams have figured out how to play him and he hasn't shown an ability to adjust.
And I view him as the organization's most valuable trade chip to address the roster gaps. But it has to happen this summer to capitalize.
I like the D including the youth of it. And I think there's a lot of other good pieces up front, and specifically Tkachuk.
But i would be moving Johnny.

Which player on the current roster has shown the ability to adjust? That is a team wide issue.

To me it’s not about who you’re trying to move. It’s who you’re trying to acquire.

[CliffFletcher]

Burke recently commented that Gaudreau is a good kid who wants to win and be a difference-maker, but he still let's his frustration get the better of him. Said he was surprised that after this long in the league, Gaudreau, in his words "hadn't learned to become a pro."

I think Gaudreau cares a lot and desperately wants to win. But he thinks he can do that by just trying harder at the things he's always done. He hasn't seemed to recognize that in order to become a winner, you often have to adapt and change what you've always done (diet, fitness, adapting to how teams play you, play away from the puck, mastering your emotions). It's concerning that in his sixth season in the league, Gaudreau hasn't starting figuring this stuff out.

[Vinny01]

While it think there is a more than reasonable chance Hall extends with the Coyotes my current prediction is the Flames will acquire his rights near the draft and the asset they will use to do so will be the 3rd rounder from the Lucic-Neal swap which will season the BOA rivalry with plenty of salt

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by BrennyBaller

Why does signing Hall mean trading Gaudreau? Why not sign Hall and load up the roster for a year to go for it? If the season goes off the rails, trade Johnny at the deadline. Or after the season when he still has a year left on his deal.

Because building your forward core around 1 offensive-minded C and 4 wingers is just a terrible idea ?

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Lots of assumption there. I would be trying to trade Johnny to expand the window further.
"Futures" doesn't mean picks or prospects, could mean a young roster player reading to take a step.
Or a combination.
Also young players drafted with high picks are entering the NHL and making an impact faster than ever.

So much this. It seems 99% clear that this core isn't going to work (at least not through May/June). Love Gaudreau, but he's never going to be the straw that stirs the drink on a cup contender (which isn't to say he can't be a hugely important piece).

Originally Posted by VilleN

I don't see a scenario in which we trade Gaudreau and receive a young roster player that would have an equal to greater impact than Gaudreau currently has.

This is guaranteed to be true, and that's okay. Boston got three bags of pucks for Thornton, yet were legit contenders within 5 years. Obviously we want to make a much better trade than that, but it also shows that all hope is not lost if Gaudreau goes on to win Art Ross trophies and the first 'Plan B' doesn't work.

Nylander or Reinhart stand out as the available pieces that fit the 'window extension re-tool' idea. I'm very skeptical that either will become 'great', but I think either (or a similar player) would absolutely be the right move.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Burke recently commented that Gaudreau is a good kid who wants to win and be a difference-maker, but he still let's his frustration get the better of him. Said he was surprised that after this long in the league, Gaudreau, in his words "hadn't learned to become a pro."

I think Gaudreau cares a lot and desperately wants to win. But he thinks he can do that by just trying harder at the things he's always done. He hasn't seemed to recognize that in order to become a winner, you often have to adapt and change what you've always done (diet, fitness, adapting to how teams play you, play away from the puck, mastering your emotions). It's concerning that in his sixth season in the league, Gaudreau hasn't starting figuring this stuff out.

Ok granted, still a lot of people have the same concerns about Taylor Hall. Not everyone is Crosby, a man who was the best player in hockey and still put the time in to develop one of the best shots in the game. Or Ovechkin for that matter, who mysteriously has improved in his 30s.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Burke recently commented that Gaudreau is a good kid who wants to win and be a difference-maker, but he still let's his frustration get the better of him. Said he was surprised that after this long in the league, Gaudreau, in his words "hadn't learned to become a pro."

I think Gaudreau cares a lot and desperately wants to win. But he thinks he can do that by just trying harder at the things he's always done. He hasn't seemed to recognize that in order to become a winner, you often have to adapt and change what you've always done (diet, fitness, adapting to how teams play you, play away from the puck, mastering your emotions). It's concerning that in his sixth season in the league, Gaudreau hasn't starting figuring this stuff out.

I think that's probably a pretty accurate take. The one thing I'd say in his defence is that doubling down on what he's already done well has generally worked - it's not like he's been banging his head against the wall and failing.

This is only the second time in his career where he hasn't significantly improved his production year-over-year, and the first time where he might not have room to. So I'm hesitant to judge him too harshly for that right now, but the next few years will be a massive test of his commitment to winning, to see if he can figure those other things out.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Because building your forward core around 1 offensive-minded C and 4 wingers is just a terrible idea ?







So much this. It seems 99% clear that this core isn't going to work (at least not through May/June). Love Gaudreau, but he's never going to be the straw that stirs the drink on a cup contender (which isn't to say he can't be a hugely important piece).







This is guaranteed to be true, and that's okay. Boston got three bags of pucks for Thornton, yet were legit contenders within 5 years. Obviously we want to make a much better trade than that, but it also shows that all hope is not lost if Gaudreau goes on to win Art Ross trophies and the first 'Plan B' doesn't work.



Nylander or Reinhart stand out as the available pieces that fit the 'window extension re-tool' idea. I'm very skeptical that either will become 'great', but I think either (or a similar player) would absolutely be the right move.

So you think trading an elite 26 year old, for a non-elite 24 year old somehow makes sense? How does that extend our window? It destroys our window... am I missing something?

[Strange Brew]

It is my belief that the Flames have gotten nothing but the very best of Johnny Gaudreau for the significant majority of his time with the club. Those making judgments about his fitness, diet and mental makeup really don’t have any visibility into these things.

The problem may be needing him to be something that he simply isn't in order for this team to win a championship.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by VilleN

So you think trading an elite 26 year old, for a non-elite 24 year old somehow makes sense? How does that extend our window? It destroys our window... am I missing something?

I guess it boils down to what you think are probably outcomes within the current 'window'.

IMO, this year is about 60/40 odds to even make the playoffs, and winning round(s) within the Pacific division will be a coin flip. I think the odds of making it any further go waaaaaaay down. In other words, i think the window is only open the tiniest crack.

Swap Gaudreau for Nylander today, and I think making the playoff odds go down a tiny bit, but their potential within them would be unchanged.

The current group's contention was predicated on Bennett being at least as good as Reinhart/Nylander currently are (also Neal/Lucic being better, goaltending resolving itself, and getting good value from ELC payers). Only 2/4 of those things happened, and there's no obvious path to the top 6 gaps & structural problems resolving themselves.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I guess it boils down to what you think are probably outcomes within the current 'window'.



IMO, this year is about 60/40 odds to even make the playoffs, and winning round(s) within the Pacific division will be a coin flip. I think the odds of making it any further go waaaaaaay down. In other words, i think the window is only open the tiniest crack.



Swap Gaudreau for Nylander today, and I think making the playoff odds go down a tiny bit, but their potential within them would be unchanged.



The current group's contention was predicated on Bennett being at least as good as Reinhart/Nylander currently are (also Neal/Lucic being better, goaltending resolving itself, and getting good value from ELC payers). Only 2/4 of those things happened, and there's no obvious path to the top 6 gaps & structural problems resolving themselves.

Ok, but trading Gaudreau for Reinhart/Nylander would accomplish what besides making the team worse?

[VilleN]

Not to mention Nylanders contract is worse and longer.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It is my belief that the Flames have gotten nothing but the very best of Johnny Gaudreau for the significant majority of his time with the club. Those making judgments about his fitness, diet and mental makeup really don’t have any visibility into these things.

The problem may be needing him to be something that he simply isn't in order for this team to win a championship.

Couldn't agree more.

Gaudreau had 99 points last year, among the likes of MacKinnon, Stamkos, Crosby, Barkov. He's struggling this season but still is on pace for just under 70 points.

Players have off years, it happens. You want to trade Gaudreau due to potential contract issues, I get it. But "diet, fitness, adapting to how teams play you, play away from the puck, mastering your emotions", how much are you extrapolating from a Burke quote?

For a high point producer Gaudreau isn't bad in his own zone.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It is my belief that the Flames have gotten nothing but the very best of Johnny Gaudreau for the significant majority of his time with the club. Those making judgments about his fitness, diet and mental makeup really don’t have any visibility into these things.

The problem may be needing him to be something that he simply isn't in order for this team to win a championship.

Well we have some visibility into his mental makeup when we see how his frustration causes his on ice play to go massively downhill. He doesn't fight through checking, has bad giveaways as he's trying to do too much, makes poor decisions with the puck when he's nearly the last man back. He isn't improving in these areas. In fact arguably for a large chunk of this year he's played about as bad as he's ever played in the NHL. Burke's comments resonate very strongly with me. It's surprising Gaudreau isn't a better pro considering how long he's been in the NHL. If he's going to let his frustrations get the best of him he won't be able to lead us anywhere. Both last playoffs and early this year are very worrying about his ability to lead this club as a premiere player.

We have some visibility into his diet when some of us are serving him food as he's asking for the vegetables to be excluded.

Some of these things aren't the total unknowns you make them out to be.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rando

Couldn't agree more.



Gaudreau had 99 points last year, among the likes of MacKinnon, Stamkos, Crosby, Barkov. He's struggling this season but still is on pace for just under 70 points.



Players have off years, it happens. You want to trade Gaudreau due to potential contract issues, I get it. But "diet, fitness, adapting to how teams play you, play away from the puck, mastering your emotions", how much are you extrapolating from a Burke quote?



For a high point producer Gaudreau isn't bad in his own zone.

FWIW, he’s on pace for 64 points.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kyuss275]

Flames first off season trade should be Backlund. Have to get something for him before its to late. If and its a big If , flames decide to go the route of bringing in hall and trading Johnny, they have to get a center back in the trade. Don't care if the flames would have to add a 1st with Johnny , to get it done. Trading Johnny for another winger is pointless.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Flames first off season trade should be Backlund. Have to get something for him before its to late. If and its a big If , flames decide to go the route of bringing in hall and trading Johnny, they have to get a center back in the trade. Don't care if the flames would have to add a 1st with Johnny , to get it done. Trading Johnny for another winger is pointless.

This. It has to be a #1C coming back. If that's not happening Gaudreau stays until the end of his contract and if he isn't willing to re-sign, you then trade him for the best package available.

[dissentowner]

Why does every thread have to turn into a trade Gaudreau thread?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Saqe

This. It has to be a #1C coming back. If that's not happening Gaudreau stays until the end of his contract and if he isn't willing to re-sign, you then trade him for the best package available.

So, at the end of his contract he won't re-sign, you trade him for the best package available.

At the end of his contract, he'll be worth nothing.

You need to move him, at the latest, at the trade deadline of his last year, which would be punting that season.

[powderjunkie]

Backlund has a full NTC until summer 2021, at which point he submits a 10 team trade list (aka 22 team no-trade list at that point).

Obviously he could waive it, but they had their first child in May...so probably about a 99% chance he's not going to waive it right now.