[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Ryan Merkley. D who went to San Jose at #21.

Whoops, that's who I meant to say... apparently I'm getting them confused as well.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I very rarely say this but I think Calgary could have and should have beaten this offer and got Taylor Hall.



I think the firepower is exactly what we need right now and a new energized hometown kid would be eager to get going again. A shame and I can only assume the price was too high but man... this one would have been terrific for Calgary, seems like a missed opportunity here.

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity that right now makes me want to be hyper critical of Tree - but then again, if Tree goes out and gets him on July 1st, awesome!

Thinking about this though, I’m not sure I understand Treliving’s plan, or how he projects things - both now, and how he started his time here.

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar). Hamonic is likely going to move on after this year, making that cost we sunk into acquiring him for three useless seasons...kind of just meaningless and an utter waste. I just really don’t understand the impatience early in the rebuild, and this conservative approach at this stage of it.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity that right now makes me want to be hyper critical of Tree - but then again, if Tree goes out and gets him on July 1st, awesome!

Thinking about this though, I’m not sure I understand Treliving’s plan, or how he projects things - both now, and how he started his time here.

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar). Hamonic is likely going to move on after this year, making that cost we sunk into acquiring him for three useless seasons...kind of just meaningless and an utter waste. I just really don’t understand the impatience early in the rebuild, and this conservative approach at this stage of it.

I agree, but I am holding out hope that tre will make a serious move to bolster the team still. Maybe theres a player out there who's a better fit that we haven't even considered that tre can pry away.

[TheScorpion]

As a general rule, I'd rather see this:

1st, 2nd and prospects for Impact player

Than this:

1st for second-liner
2nd + prospect for reclamation project

Quality always >>> quantity

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity that right now makes me want to be hyper critical of Tree - but then again, if Tree goes out and gets him on July 1st, awesome!

Thinking about this though, I’m not sure I understand Treliving’s plan, or how he projects things - both now, and how he started his time here.

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar). Hamonic is likely going to move on after this year, making that cost we sunk into acquiring him for three useless seasons...kind of just meaningless and an utter waste. I just really don’t understand the impatience early in the rebuild, and this conservative approach at this stage of it.

Its almost like he's learned from past transgressions.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity that right now makes me want to be hyper critical of Tree - but then again, if Tree goes out and gets him on July 1st, awesome!

Thinking about this though, I’m not sure I understand Treliving’s plan, or how he projects things - both now, and how he started his time here.

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar). Hamonic is likely going to move on after this year, making that cost we sunk into acquiring him for three useless seasons...kind of just meaningless and an utter waste. I just really don’t understand the impatience early in the rebuild, and this conservative approach at this stage of it.

So you think Hamonic was a mistake because he’s gone next year but you’d be good with a assets for a rental like Hall?

I think Treliving thought the Flames were a lot closer to a deep run when he got Hamonic. He thought Ferland was going too be a long term fit, he had Hamilton who looked to be a top pairing guy and all he needed was a RHS 4D. He likely thought Bennett would progress, Janko too.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So you think Hamonic was a mistake because he’s gone next year but you’d be good with a assets for a rental like Hall?



I think Treliving thought the Flames were a lot closer to a deep run when he got Hamonic. He thought Ferland was going too be a long term fit, he had Hamilton who looked to be a top pairing guy and all he needed was a RHS 4D. He likely thought Bennett would progress, Janko too.

I was never on-board with Hall as a rental. I do look at the deal as it went down with Arizona and see the two first round picks for playoff success and an extension and am still fine with the value proposition. An extended Hall is worth two (late) 1st round picks in my eyes.

If he really thought the team was on the brink when he acquired Hamonic, well - he was just wrong and I hope he’s improving. This year hasn’t been a good one for Treliving, and he’s openly acknowledged that. In his words, he has been horse%#^*.

He could definitely turn it around of course, as it sounds like he’s being honest with himself and knows that he’s been underperforming in his role. Hopefully he can find a way to improve this team in a meaningful way.

[Strange Brew]

Until we see Treliving’s next move it’s very hard to see the long term plan. He had a first round pick traded away at the deadline last year for a second line player so that screams win now to me. Has he moved away from that?

I suspect that it has been very very difficult trying to move salary out so his options are limited in adding anyone. No one wants another teams dead weight.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Kevin Bahl could be a player. Huge kid with good mobility and a shutdown reputation.

[dino7c]

We can say so and so is equivalent to whoever but at the end of the day the Devil's wanted and chose those prospects...maybe they love Bahl.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by dino7c

We can say so and so is equivalent to whoever but at the end of the day the Devil's wanted and chose those prospects...maybe they love Bahl.

I just think "Bahl Hockey" would make a great headline.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by New Era

Taylor Hall is the perfect player for the argument between fancy stats and reality. The fancy stats tell you one thing, but his play on the ice says another. Glad we passed on this paper tiger. Looking forward to watching the Road Kill falter.

I take it you disagree that Hall was MVP of the NHL in 2018? You are saying that was fancy stat based and not reality?

[The Big Chill]

It's interesting that Hall has been traded twice, and the return both times seemed pretty underwhelming. His value around the league just musn't be that high.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

It's interesting that Hall has been traded twice, and the return both times seemed pretty underwhelming. His value around the league just musn't be that high.

Seems like a decent return for a rental? We got a late 1st + AHLers for Iginla. Arizona's pick likely to be a middle 1st and Bahl seems like he's actually a prospect

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

It's interesting that Hall has been traded twice, and the return both times seemed pretty underwhelming. His value around the league just musn't be that high.

The Coyotes just paid a huge price for 45ish games of Hall.

IF he re-signs it's not as bad in that they retain his services albeit at what will be a huge AAV.

But make no mistake, this is a big cost for half a season of a player.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Seems like a decent return for a rental? We got a late 1st + AHLers for Iginla. Arizona's pick likely to be a middle 1st and Bahl seems like he's actually a prospect

Of course Iggy played a role in the bad return. Though Pittsburgh probably had a better chance of a re-signing.

[troutman]

Hall has been a part of one playoff victory in his career.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I take it you disagree that Hall was MVP of the NHL in 2018? You are saying that was fancy stat based and not reality?

No, Hall was voted in as the MVP of the NHL that season. That is a fact. No denying the NHL Hockey Writers Association voted Hall as the league MVP.

Did I agree with the vote? Nope. I thought Kucherov should have got the vote. If it wasn't him, it should have been guys like Kopitar, Wheeler, or MacKinnon. A guy that should have received a lot more votes was Fleury, who led the upstart Knights to the playoffs in their first season. Hall had a great year, but I thought there were many more compelling stories and better performances that season.

In retrospect, what really bothered me about Hall winning the award was that the season was such an outlier for him. Career highs in every category and only his second season in the NHL to have a positive +/-. Just such a strange year where big things happened all around the league.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Coyotes just paid a huge price for 45ish games of Hall.

IF he re-signs it's not as bad in that they retain his services albeit at what will be a huge AAV.

But make no mistake, this is a big cost for half a season of a player.

Really Tranny, you think this was a big price? I thought it was underwhelming. What did they really get?

Nick Merkley - a nothing player. He's draft +5 and has 1 NHL game under his belt. He's done nothing in the AHL and is a guy that every system has a number of. He seems like a contract kick in.

Nate Scharr - a big kid that was mid round pick and is in his first pro season. I would equate him to Adam Ruzicka for the Flames. Experienced a massive production increase in his last year of junior, which always concerns me. Is that what to expect, or a regression to his mean? Maybe has a future as a role player?

Kevin Bahl - probably the best player they got in the deal. The kid is huge, which is a massive advantage in junior. Will that translate? Is he as good as he has shown in Ottawa, or have the Devils fallen for the halo effect when they observe their other three prospects on the same team? A long way to go for this massive rear guard IMO.

The 1st round pick is the best asset given up, but how is that going to play out? The Yotes are tied for 6th overall right now. If Hall brings what the organization is hoping for, that pick is going to be a late first rounder. If they resign him it's going to cost them another first rounder, but they will have a player they obvious have a desire to keep around on their roster, and if things go the way they hope, only give up another late 1st rounder.

What really made me believe this was a deal where the return was underwhelming was the fact the Coyotes were not forced to cough up any prospects of note. Not a single one of the guys they talk up as their best prospects were involved in the trade. The things the Coyotes control that they gave up were unknowns at this point. That is a great trade IMO.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really Tranny, you think this was a big price? I thought it was underwhelming. What did they really get?

Nick Merkley - a nothing player. He's draft +5 and has 1 NHL game under his belt. He's done nothing in the AHL and is a guy that every system has a number of. He seems like a contract kick in.

Nate Scharr - a big kid that was mid round pick and is in his first pro season. I would equate him to Adam Ruzicka for the Flames. Experienced a massive production increase in his last year of junior, which always concerns me. Is that what to expect, or a regression to his mean? Maybe has a future as a role player?

Kevin Bahl - probably the best player they got in the deal. The kid is huge, which is a massive advantage in junior. Will that translate? Is he as good as he has shown in Ottawa, or have the Devils fallen for the halo effect when they observe their other three prospects on the same team? A long way to go for this massive rear guard IMO.

The 1st round pick is the best asset given up, but how is that going to play out? The Yotes are tied for 6th overall right now. If Hall brings what the organization is hoping for, that pick is going to be a late first rounder. If they resign him it's going to cost them another first rounder, but they will have a player they obvious have a desire to keep around on their roster, and if things go the way they hope, only give up another late 1st rounder.

What really made me believe this was a deal where the return was underwhelming was the fact the Coyotes were not forced to cough up any prospects of note. Not a single one of the guys they talk up as their best prospects were involved in the trade. The things the Coyotes control that they gave up were unknowns at this point. That is a great trade IMO.

Prediction: Hall doesn't sign with the Yotes. So the price being a lot or a little depends a lot on how deep they go. I predict they win one round - they can beat Edmonton, for example, but even with Hall I don't think they can hang with any team that makes it through - St.L, Avs, Vegas, Flames being the most likely. So they will give up the extra second but not the extra first.