Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't.

I think they clearly felt the room needed Neal gone and he would never fit. The Lucic for Neal swap makes sense on most levels save for the contract configuration, and the Oilers not paying enough to make the swap in my mind.

So in other words, the deal doesn't make sense which in turn is why I think it was born completely of desperation.

There HAD to be something coming back to the Flames that at least somewhat alleviated the contract/risk coming with Lucic...not the money but the impossibility of getting out from him continuing the complete suckage of the last 2 1/2 years.

Again in the last 19 calendar months (122 games)...he has SEVEN goals.

Obviously it appears they needed him out of the room...but why not just a buy out instead of acquiring what is a much worse contract in terms of getting out of it?

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I cannot believe that if they didnt offer him around for 50% retained (a much much preferable outcome) they could not have at least gotten a 3rd or even a longshot prospect


Desperation IMO.

[Psytic]

I would try out Chucky - Bennett - Lucic it would be one of the most irritating lines in hockey for other teams.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GGG

Are there any McDavid effects there? Do the stars allow you to separate minutes played with McDavid and minutes without them for all players. These numbers appear to suggest that points were scored when he was on the ice but he didn’t get the conventional counting stats

Yes and no

He got a boost with McDavid (53.6% CF), but was a positive player without him as well which is a feat on the Oilers (50.4% CF)

The most common line combination with Lucic by a long shot was Kassian and Brodziak (167 min, next closest 95 min), and they were 51.3% CF

His numbers weren't great with NH, but he was good with Currie and Cave (are they NHLers?)

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yeah it’s a lot of cap space.

Not enough to sign star players like 19-point 5.75M James Neal, but we’ll have to manage.

The “reality” is only a reality in your head, which seems like it’s full of that aforementioned fuzziness. Even if everything goes south (and hell, it might) it’s pretty hard to believe this is any way monumental or franchise crippling. Unless you believe Neal was suddenly going to rebound playing on Calgary’s third line again, where he was oh so happy and full of effort all season. And if you believe that, more power to you, but the “reality” is, that it was a long shot.

The only mistake made was signing Neal in the first place, and that’s on Neal. If you can’t come to the rink prepared and can’t bother to show up for your team and put effort in, that’s on you. I’d rather have an overpaid player who cares while putting up 20 than one who doesn’t while putting up 20.

Neal wanted out. Peters didn’t trust Neal. He wasn’t turning back into the “real deal” any time soon.

As far as me being “condescending” or “screaming at others” relax man. You made a silly mistake and I told you to use your brain. It’s Saturday morning and the rain has stopped. Hockey forums ain’t serious business

You’re running around calling everything “spin” and saying nobody should think this is anything less than horrible. Time to breathe..

Are you not at all concerned about how much your tune has changed on James Neal in such a short time?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So in other words, the deal doesn't make sense which in turn is why I think it was born completely of desperation.

There HAD to be something coming back to the Flames that at least somewhat alleviated the contract/risk coming with Lucic...not the money but the impossibility of getting out from him continuing the complete suckage of the last 2 1/2 years.

Again in the last 19 calendar months (122 games)...he has SEVEN goals.

Obviously it appears they needed him out of the room...but why not just a buy out instead of acquiring what is a much worse contract in terms of getting out of it?

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I cannot believe that if they didnt offer him around for 50% retained (a much much preferable outcome) they could not have at least gotten a 3rd or even a longshot prospect


Desperation IMO.

Don’t agree with your opinion. A buyout has this team taking a cap penalty for 8 years which is longer than any contract this team has signed.

The team has long coveted having an enforcer like Lucic so I think the logic is simple. They rid themselves of a terrible asset and get a terrible one in return.

I am sure Geoff Ward was heavily involved in this deal and the team probably feels better paying Lucic 5.25M as opposed to eating 50% of Neal’s contract and paying another guy to be an in your face enforcer type.

The Flames were a sod team and go tougher. They ditched their worst asset to do it and gained back an asset that is likely a little worse overall but a better fit for this team and they save 500k in cap in the process.

Not a great move but not desperation or worst deal since Gilmour type move.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The advanced stats say he was a relatively better player than the other players on a team that finished 25th overall. Yippee.

We have seen players turn their lives around after Edmonton frequently enough to know that it is not the players' fault up there.

Dubnyk left and became Carey Price.
Justin Schultz left and won two Cups.
Hall left and won MVP.

It doesn't surprise me Talbot's numbers have suffered since his 70 game season - Edmonton tasted a little success and thought they had reached the summit. They thought Talbot was their Patrick Roy (incidentally, Roy never played more than 67 games in the regular season) and abandoned any commitments to Defense they had established in their one good year. The results were entirely predictable.

That team has a top-2 player in the world and another 50 goal scorer and they're picking 8th. That ain't Milan Lucic's fault.

Fact is, there has been exactly one player able to transcend the toxic sludge that is the Edmonton Oilers in the last 28 years, and that player is Chris Pronger.

Lucic was destined to not work out long term with whoever gave him that deal. But he was guaranteed to fail in the most spectacular fashion possible because he signed with the Oilers, and we all know why that is.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The advanced stats say he was a relatively better player than the other players on a team that finished 25th overall. Yippee.

And basic stats say he still scored more points than Neal did on the 2nd best team in the NHL; which was also the 2nd highest scoring team in the NHL.

All those points to go around and Neal still couldn't outscore Lucic on a lower scoring, horrible Edmonton.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

And basic stats say he still scored more points than Neal did on the 2nd best team in the NHL; which was also the 2nd highest scoring team in the NHL.

All those points to go around and Neal still couldn't outscore Lucic on a lower scoring, horrible Edmonton.

Neal played 16 fewer games. He'd have outscored Lucic had he been healthy, albeit barely.

[CanadaMatt]

I wonder what we can read into Johnny (and probably other players) getting involved to make this deal happen? Is it an indictment on Neal as a dressing room guy that key players were helping get him out of the club?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think they had a 5M+ fourth liner regardless as you said.

I support Treliving, but it's hard to fathom how the pro scouting staff could have missed the mark on both Brouwer and Neal.

Truth. I’ve been saying this for a long time. It doesn’t even start with Brouwer and Neal. It goes farther back to guys like Raymond, Bollig, Hiller and etc for me. Some of the pro scouts on this team deserve a long and critical evaluation for the many misfires over the years in my opinion. The amateur scouts are skating circles around these guys right now.

Back on topic though. I hated the move when I heard it, but I have since softened up my stance. I do hate that we’re helping out the Oilers, but overall, I think this move will ultimately help out the team. Neal was never going to be successful on this team because he was a one trick pony who just didn’t fit anywhere in the lineup. He’ll probably score 20+ with McDavid feeding him easy lay ups now.

But Lucic should be able help the Flames in other areas like in the corners, along the boards, in the forecheck, in front of the net. These were things that Neal didn’t excel at. I would implore anyone to watch the following highlights and to watch Lucic closely. I think for anyone who hates the trade, I think it’ll change your opinion of him like it did mine. He’s not just a face puncher, he can play.


https://youtu.be/di7a1Y7HxK0


https://youtu.be/zlDfCy1QbTA

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The advanced stats say he was a relatively better player than the other players on a team that finished 25th overall. Yippee.

That's just pissy.

If you don't want to like the deal I get that. Discounting statistics that are hard to refute is a waste of bandwidth.

And it doesn't actually say that. It says he was a positive contribution player period. I wasn't quoting relative numbers.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

And basic stats say he still scored more points than Neal did on the 2nd best team in the NHL; which was also the 2nd highest scoring team in the NHL.

All those points to go around and Neal still couldn't outscore Lucic on a lower scoring, horrible Edmonton.

Lucic got a lot of ice time on a terrible, terrible Oilers team.

The guy is dumb as bricks. I watched way too many Oilers games the last couple of years and, boy, you think Bennett's penalties are boneheaded? Lucic: hold my beer.

I realize though it's a junk for junk trade. It's a redundant move for both teams at best.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Truth. I’ve been saying this for a long time. It doesn’t even start with Brouwer and Neal. It goes farther back to guys like Raymond, Bollig, Hiller and etc for me. Some of the pro scouts on this team deserve a long and critical evaluation for the many misfires over the years in my opinion. The amateur scouts are skating circles around these guys right now.

I am assuming it is the same pro scouts who gave BT the thumbs up for this trade. I do not think the Flames have made any substantial changes to their pro scouting team.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So in other words, the deal doesn't make sense which in turn is why I think it was born completely of desperation.

There HAD to be something coming back to the Flames that at least somewhat alleviated the contract/risk coming with Lucic...not the money but the impossibility of getting out from him continuing the complete suckage of the last 2 1/2 years.

Again in the last 19 calendar months (122 games)...he has SEVEN goals.

Obviously it appears they needed him out of the room...but why not just a buy out instead of acquiring what is a much worse contract in terms of getting out of it?

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I cannot believe that if they didnt offer him around for 50% retained (a much much preferable outcome) they could not have at least gotten a 3rd or even a longshot prospect


Desperation IMO.

I agree this is stinks of desperation.

Everyone knows my thoughts on #18 and Im very happy to not see him in Flames red again.

But Surely there were other options, such as 50% retained or a deal where he was packaged with a pick.

The biggest disappointment I have is that (after a decade of mediocrity) the Flames are in a cup window...and we’re adding Milan Lucic, when we should be adding Zuccarello (or similar)...but we can because we’ve wasted the cap space.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I think it's likely because those advances stats were completely ignored when posters flamed Lucic over the last few years. Suddenly Lucic is looking better.

But you are correct, advanced stats are often ignored when they don't fit the narrative. But you'll see all fans of all teams do that.

Not from my side.

I dug in earlier this week when Staples wrote his 10 reasons Lucic can be traded article as I found it shocking. I was sure I'd find a way to pop his balloon and have fun with him on twitter.

There was no such "pin"

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not from my side.

I dug in earlier this week when Staples wrote his 10 reasons Lucic can be traded article as I found it shocking. I was sure I'd find a way to pop his balloon and have fun with him on twitter.

There was no such "pin"

Can we also acknowledge that one of the factors that makes Lucic so offensive (from an Edmonton perspective) is that they only had salary cap room for him in the first place because they traded Taylor Hall.

Calgary didn't trade an MVP to sign this lummox. They traded James Neal. Cry me a river.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I wonder what we can read into Johnny (and probably other players) getting involved to make this deal happen? Is it an indictment on Neal as a dressing room guy that key players were helping get him out of the club?

What is the context around this? I’ve read this a couple times. Gaudreau and others called lucic to encourage he waive for the trade???

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I agree this is stinks of desperation.

Everyone knows my thoughts on #18 and Im very happy to not see him in Flames red again.

But Surely there were other options, such as 50% retained or a deal where he was packaged with a pick.

The biggest disappointment I have is that (after a decade of mediocrity) the Flames are in a cup window...and we’re adding Milan Lucic, when we should be adding Zuccarello (or similar)...but we can because we’ve wasted the cap space.

The team could still take from their defensive depth and add a top 6 winger.

I don’t think eating nearly $3M in dead cap and sending a pick is the right move either.

The only down side is the team decided to not see if a rejuvenated Neal could bounce back. I think this trade would have always been there for them so I don’t see the need to rush things until Neal proved definitively he was a bust. Something is up where both sides desperately wanted a breakup ASAP.

[badradio]

I’m confident most Flames fans will love Lucic the moment he sticks up for his teammates or throws a thunderous hit. It creates energy and can turn the tide of a game, something the Flames have been lacking. Sure Bennett, chucky and gio bring it, but Lucic is on another level in physical play. Im confident our skilled players are going to play a little taller knowing Lucic is on the team as well. I’m stoked for next season! Entertainment factor has gone up.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I think it's likely because those advances stats were completely ignored when posters flamed Lucic over the last few years. Suddenly Lucic is looking better.

But you are correct, advanced stats are often ignored when they don't fit the narrative. But you'll see all fans of all teams do that.

In my opinion it is human nature to try and look at the bright side of a bad situation. That was never going to happen when Lucic was wearing orange.

Look at the Oilers boards that ripped Neal last year and now calling for him to score 30 despite the fact he is playing for a coach not known for offense and just left one of the highest scoring teams in the league where he could only muster 7 goals.