Multiculturalism not working...Part II

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Igottago

The only thing I take issue with is that you seem to think its largely the immigrants fault for not wanting to integrate.

You make a very good point there. I suppose it falls upon everybody to try and make it better.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I really don't understand is how people can say that it is entirely positive that people can maintain each and every part of their culture; including refusing to learn either of our official languages, then turn around and say they don't feel like they are being embraced into Canadian culture.

I agree that people should learn the language, but where do we draw the line? Everyone has different expectations on how much assimilation should take place and no matter how much an immigrant does assimilate there will still be someone who thinks they havn't. Do they have to stop using other languages all together? in public? watch hockey?

IMO, the tricky part of multiculturalism is balancing the values and cultures of different places. The problem is that everyone has different expectations of where that balance is.

As for the people who aren't being embraced; they're not necessarily only the people who don't wanna learn english.
There are times when I've felt unembraced and I'm a born and raised Calgarian. The people who refuse to embrace other cultures generally do it to all people of those cultures, not just the new immigrants who won't speak English.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I totally agree with what you're saying..in a perfect world..but its not a perfect world, and the majority of humans don't want to leave their comfort zone. If its easier for an immigrant to move to an area where people look and sound like them, most people will do that. Same thing with the majority.

Another thing that is often overlooked is when white people move out of those communities because they're getting too coloured.
People tend to only focus on the minorities going into certain communities and not the majorities leaving it which also contributes to the high proportion of certain racial groups in certain areas.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

During the summer we completed an important project at work. The principle players on the project planned a pool party (unintentional alliteration alert). I met a co-workers fiancee for the first time. She said that her parents, 3rd generation Canadians originally from England were shocked that she was marrying my co-worker from Lebanon. "What?!?! You're marrying a TERRORIST?!?!" they asked her. They were going to oppose the marriage purely based on race until they met the fellow and realized that he had assimilated (drinks beer, watches hockey). It's disturbing to see that kinda sh*t and I hope that my generation won't be like that.

Was it based purely upon race or was it based upon a preconceived notion that Middle Eastern cultures give women the short end of the stick? Maybe they thought that since he was Middle Eastern he was sexist, even though there are Middle Eastern cultures that treat women as equals? By seeing that he had embraced some Canadian culture such as hockey and beer maybe they felt that he also embraced the equality of sexes that is part of Canadian culture?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Was it based purely upon race or was it based upon a preconceived notion that Middle Eastern cultures give women the short end of the stick? Maybe they thought that since he was Middle Eastern he was sexist, even though there are Middle Eastern cultures that treat women as equals? By seeing that he had embraced some Canadian culture such as hockey and beer maybe they felt that he also embraced the equality of sexes that is part of Canadian culture?

I don't know, but whatever it was it was completely and 100% WRONG. If you read the Sun poll, almost 50% of people say they are a little bit racist. In that they make preconcieved notions based on race. For example, ASSUMING that my friend/co-worker was a sexist because his parents come from Lebanon. That's just wrong. Some people call it "playing the percentages"; I call it making unfair assessments of people before ever meeting them. Judge each person as an individual.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I don't know, but whatever it was it was completely and 100% WRONG. If you read the Sun poll, almost 50% of people say they are a little bit racist. In that they make preconcieved notions based on race. For example, ASSUMING that my friend/co-worker was a sexist because his parents come from Lebanon. That's just wrong. Some people call it "playing the percentages"; I call it making unfair assessments of people before ever meeting them. Judge each person as an individual.

yes it is wrong to have a judgement in mind of someone based on race, age, gender, how they dress, sexuality, hair color, religion, choice of music, accent, country of origin, weight, whatever. but everyone does it. everyone. if you claim you've never had a thought pop into your head about something like that, you're a liar.

now. where it gets to be a problem is when this happens often not just a rare occurance and/or where it effects your behavior. having a thought that's 'bad' doesn't make you an 'evil' person. as long as you can see through it for what it is and push it out of your mind... no problem. having your life ruled by these prejudiced thoughts though....

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Another thing that is often overlooked is when white people move out of those communities because they're getting too coloured.
People tend to only focus on the minorities going into certain communities and not the majorities leaving it which also contributes to the high proportion of certain racial groups in certain areas.

Affluence is the big suspect there. Dem coloured folk seem to do the exact same thing as the racist whities when they themselves reach a certain level of affluence and decide the burbs look better.

[HOZ]

Immigrants are not the problem here. Though our "except everyone and anyone" refugee system and illogical immigration system leaves a lot to be desired.....

Immigrants no matter where they come from or why, will always have an affinity for home. How can they not? Language acquisition is tough though very necessary. How can you live here and not communicate? Though some do but this is a rarity; the 80 Grandma off the boat isn't going to learn English of French if she hasn't already learned to do so. Living with people of your own culture is a natural safety valve that helps.

The problem is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation feeling the way they do.

These people aren't just separating from the WHITE English speakers. They are separating themselves from EVERYONE ELSE who is not the same as themselves. I feel the funding and encouragement by our government is a big part of that problem.

How can you have a community when all you do is talk about how different you are from everyone else?

[HOZ]

Here is a piece in the Globe and Mail by Margaret Wente.


Interesting quote:

He argues that official multiculturalism, with its emphasis on race and difference, only makes matters worse. "We glorify something that never should have been glorified," he says. "Multiculturalism means you're always thinking about somebody's skin colour. In Mumbai, people don't think, 'Oh, I have to be inclusive with this guy.' People think, 'How can I do business with him?' "

Mr. Thomas is also riled by the political ideology dispensed on every university campus -- the official narratives of Western wickedness and discrimination. "It's a kind of self-perpetuating victimhood, the sense that maybe we can't survive in the mainstream without special help." The last thing that immigrants and minorities need is special help. What they do need is "to be able to contribute, to make money, to do well."

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Affluence is the big suspect there. Dem coloured folk seem to do the exact same thing as the racist whities when they themselves reach a certain level of affluence and decide the burbs look better.

Everybody, or nearly everybody, does that. It doesn't matter what colour your skin is. If you get rich, you want to live in a big house with a garage and a yard.

And we don't have "Dem coloured folk" in Canada.

It's funny. We have this "Multiculturalism" experiment and a population made up of 98% immigrants or descendants of immigrants and Canada is one of the wealthiest, healthiest and everything-elsiest countries in the world but we still have people bitching about both multiculturalism and immigration.

"Multiculturalism" might not be perfect, but saying this aspect of Canadian society "is not working" is a little melodramatic.

As for speaking the language, what do I care if someone moves here and doesn't learn the language? That's their problem, not mine. In exactly the same way past generations of immigrants like Germans, Swedes and Italians did, the non-English speaker's children and grandchildren will speak English and they will "integrate". We (almost) all had to get with the program somewhere along the way. That's not going to change.

[Shazam]

There was once a time when being white wasn't even good enough to be "white":

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...516/italianrap

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Affluence is the big suspect there. Dem coloured folk seem to do the exact same thing as the racist whities when they themselves reach a certain level of affluence and decide the burbs look better.

Affluence is a factor, but not all of it. Not every neighbourhood full of coloured folk is poor. Some areas of Richmond are quite Affluent, yet they still don't have many white people.
Why?

And I was not suggesting that only white people do it. I was saying that they also do it.
The same way some Chinese people move to Richmond to be near other Chinese, some white people move out of Richmond to get back into more white neighbourhoods. A lot of people are more comfortable living with their own race.
All I'm saying is that it's not only minorities who stick to their own.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Here is a piece in the Globe and Mail by Margaret Wente.


Interesting quote:

He argues that official multiculturalism, with its emphasis on race and difference, only makes matters worse. "We glorify something that never should have been glorified," he says. "Multiculturalism means you're always thinking about somebody's skin colour. In Mumbai, people don't think, 'Oh, I have to be inclusive with this guy.' People think, 'How can I do business with him?' "

Interesting that he is the editor of an "Indo-Canadian" newspaper which emphasizes race, and then he spends most of the artical talking about the differences between Asians and everyone else in how they view school, business etc.
For a guy againt emphasizing race and differences, he sure talks a lot about race and differences.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Interesting that he is the editor of an "Indo-Canadian" newspaper which emphasizes race, and then he spends most of the artical talking about the differences between Asians and everyone else in how they view school, business etc.
For a guy againt emphasizing race and differences, he sure talks a lot about race and differences.

And is the guy saying Canada should operate more like the mindset in Mumbai?? In a country where the caste system is very much alive and well?? Where hordes of people live in poverty and aren't even considered to be people? Is he freakin' crazy?? Let me think about it... Canada or Mumbai...I'll take my chances with Canada thank you very much.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Igottago

And is the guy saying Canada should operate more like the mindset in Mumbai?? In a country where the caste system is very much alive and well?? Where hordes of people live in poverty and aren't even considered to be people? Is he freakin' crazy?? Let me think about it... Canada or Mumbai...I'll take my chances with Canada thank you very much.

You have to be very silly to believe he was saying that. Again, you cherry pick the pieces, without really ever trying to comprehend what he said, that allow you to get on your podium and look down on the great unwashed.




Interesting that he is the editor of an "Indo-Canadian" newspaper which emphasizes race, and then he spends most of the artical talking about the differences between Asians and everyone else in how they view school, business etc.
For a guy againt emphasizing race and differences, he sure talks a lot about race and differences.

I see you have attacked the messenger rather than the message. The article was written by another person and he was quoted after being asked to answer questions. Hence the talking about race.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Igottago

And is the guy saying Canada should operate more like the mindset in Mumbai?? In a country where the caste system is very much alive and well?? Where hordes of people live in poverty and aren't even considered to be people?

Sounds a lot like canada already.

[Philly06Cup]

On Multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism is a good thing. It is the bringing together if different values, traditions, beliefs; when we integrate this together, there's a better understanding of the world for everyone. I love sharing different food, traditions, and views on religion with other people. It helps broaden our minds and make us more accepting of people.

Right now I think we have faux-multiculturalism though. Let me explain.

Everywhere I look, Asians are grouped with other Asians; Brown people are grouped with other Brown people. Generally, Asians will purposefully discriminate and choose only other Asians to befriend -- probably out of comfort or something stupid like that. But isn't this just another form of racism??? This is this huge double-standard no one will admit to. Throughout grade school and now in university, I always see people of the same race flocked together.

There is some blending of cultures occuring, but not enough. We all speak English -- there is no reason for this blatant self-congregation of race to be so rampant.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Interesting that 10% of Canadians polled said that they would not want their child to marry outside of their race and a further 16% said it would depend on race. Though I would like to have seen that broken up by how many years the person had been in Canada. Is it the immigrants who want their children to say within their race, or is it the people who have lived here their whole lives.....

During the summer we completed an important project at work. The principle players on the project planned a pool party (unintentional alliteration alert). I met a co-workers fiancee for the first time. She said that her parents, 3rd generation Canadians originally from England were shocked that she was marrying my co-worker from Lebanon. "What?!?! You're marrying a TERRORIST?!?!" they asked her. They were going to oppose the marriage purely based on race until they met the fellow and realized that he had assimilated (drinks beer, watches hockey). It's disturbing to see that kinda sh*t and I hope that my generation won't be like that.

This post resonates with me for a few reasons.

1. I married a Russian girl I met while working in Kyrgyzstan. My Mother, a daughter of immigrant parents, was against the marriage. Now part of it was typical Mother-in-law type crap - "she's not good enough for my son', and part of it had to do with the "Russian bride" stereotype, but a largest part of it was, for lack of a better word, racial intolerance . My wife was born outside of Canada and and to make matters worse, her English wasn't very good at the time and both of those things bothered my Mother. It wasn't until I reminded my Mother that both of her parents were immigrants and neither of them spoke a word of English when they came to Canada did she understand the hypocracy in her thinking.

2. Regarding the comments made about 'blood'. In some cultures, it means everything. My wife is an ethic Russian. Her Mother was born in Kyrgyzstan and she was born in Kyrgyzstan, she's never even visited Russia, but even suggest to her she is Kyrgyz, not Russian, and she will bitch-slap you before you know what hit you. In the former USSR, people carried Soviet passports, but each passport specified their ethnicity and thats the way people wanted it.

3. Assimilation. It's a tough question. I don't support forced assimilation and agree with those who say that it is a good thing for immigrants to have a safety net of 'their own kind' to fall back on. I know having a growing Russian community in Calgary and a access to Russian videos, dvds, foodstuffs, etc., helped eased the trauma of integrating into a new country and different society. It's tough to say how much is too much and unfortunately in some communities, as has been said, it is too easy to not become involved in Canadian society.

I don't see anything wrong with hyphenated Canadian, whether it is Chinese-Canadian or Russian-Canadian, etc. That's what multiculturalism is. It becomes a problem when immigrants don't feel the Canadian part.

Myself, I guess I am only a second generation Canadian (second generation born in Canada). Yet I've never considered myself anything but 100% Canadian. That may well because both sets of Grandparents were Europeans, so it was easier to integrate, or maybe its because most native Albertans are only second or third generation Canadians, compared, say to East coasters and Central Canadians, who might be 8th or 9th generation Canucks.

Interesting topic.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Immigrants are not the problem here. Though our "except everyone and anyone" refugee system and illogical immigration system leaves a lot to be desired.....

Immigrants no matter where they come from or why, will always have an affinity for home. How can they not? Language acquisition is tough though very necessary. How can you live here and not communicate? Though some do but this is a rarity; the 80 Grandma off the boat isn't going to learn English of French if she hasn't already learned to do so. Living with people of your own culture is a natural safety valve that helps.

The problem is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation feeling the way they do.

These people aren't just separating from the WHITE English speakers. They are separating themselves from EVERYONE ELSE who is not the same as themselves. I feel the funding and encouragement by our government is a big part of that problem.

How can you have a community when all you do is talk about how different you are from everyone else?

Nevermind that Canada, contrary to belief, does NOT accept anyone very lightly. In fact, Canadian immigration is far more strict than that of many other countries, including the one where you reside currently. It took my wife a full year of waiting, a couple of thousand dollars and a couple of interviews before she was granted her permanent residence - and she was a routine case married to a Canadian citizen and from Japan (not a second or third world country). No matter where you come from the key is whether or not you can support yourself financially (or someone can vouch and offer to pay for you) - once you've cleared all the hurdles you can make a go of it in Canada.

I think it becomes dangerous to start to define expectations beyond that. Society needs you to pay taxes and obey the law, but that's it. There are mutlicultural programs in Canada because the country is smart enough to recognize that without immigration, the country would lose it's economic standing in the world. The fact that we have multiculturalism ENCOURAGES the best (or at least better) people to come to Canada, pay taxes and obey the law. It has very little to do with association, but that is a given - it'sa natural and normal part of the process of adaption - and I know you get this part living in Japan. In the end, Canada doesn't fund groups of Chinese students getting together - they're going to hang out together regardless. Rather, Canada funds the ability for other Canadians to learn about the unique makeup of the country, which is pretty much based on the culture of a whole bunch of people coming from all different parts of the world and learning how to get along with each other with bad, cold weather. If there was real misappropriation of funds used for multiculturalism (ie, that it was used to drive cultural or racial wedges between people) you'd have a point but I'm sure that you'd agree the common thread of allowing people freedom of choice and movement is the only acceptable response once citizenship is granted.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I don't see anything wrong with hyphenated Canadian, whether it is Chinese-Canadian or Russian-Canadian, etc. That's what multiculturalism is. It becomes a problem when immigrants don't feel the Canadian part.

it just gets tiresome. if you immigrated from china and you really really need to identify yourself as chinese-canadian....fine. but when your grandparents were the ones that immigrated over and both your parents and you were born here: drop the chinese already, you're canadian just like the rest of us!!

also, only one modifier please. i met someone (born in ontario and has never lived outside of canada) who identified themselves as japanese-chinese-canadian cause one parent immigrated from china and one from japan. where does this end? i'm swedish-german-irish-ukranian-russian-french-english-canadian. oh yea - and i'll only hang out with other swedish-german-irish-ukranian-russian-french-english-canadians.

which brings me to another thing... i hate hyphenated last names.