Lazar: "It's become obvious to me that I'm an NHL player"

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Upside? Still? This is his fifth pro season, and he has about 250 NHL games under his belt. He's had a chance with two organizations. By far the most likely view is that we already know who Curtis Lazar is, and he will never be anything more than a replacement level player. Those guys aren't too hard to find.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

There are endless examples of players who massively improved after age 22. It’s a very regular occurrence. Yeah he’s played a lot but he was also rushed and had mono. There are very good reasons why he’s struggled.

Not saying he’ll break out like Lindholm but that argument you used against Lazar is one I heard several times around the Lindholm trade. He was 23, he had played years in the nhl, he’ll never be better than what he was. It’s a bad argument.

Very few players have peaked at Lazar’s age. Most players develop significantly after his age. Backlund and Gio are two very easy examples of this. This false narrative that players in the 22-23 range can’t improve is repeated way too much on this site. We’ve seen it in the Bennett and Lazar discussions. It needs to be called out for the BS it is. We saw it around the Hanifin and Lindholm trade too and anybody who thought they had peaked and weren’t still developing was dead wrong.

Wow.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

There are endless examples of players who massively improved after age 22. It’s a very regular occurrence. Yeah he’s played a lot but he was also rushed and had mono. There are very good reasons why he’s struggled.

Not saying he’ll break out like Lindholm but that argument you used against Lazar is one I heard several times around the Lindholm trade. He was 23, he had played years in the nhl, he’ll never be better than what he was. It’s a bad argument.

Very few players have peaked at Lazar’s age. Most players develop significantly after his age. Backlund and Gio are two very easy examples of this. This false narrative that players in the 22-23 range can’t improve is repeated way too much on this site. We’ve seen it in the Bennett and Lazar discussions. It needs to be called out for the BS it is. We saw it around the Hanifin and Lindholm trade too and anybody who thought they had peaked and weren’t still developing was dead wrong.

Tell us about Bennett.

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[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Wow.

Wow what?

Lindholm is a great example of a guy who has taken a large step forward, even though he has already played more than the mythical 250 games in the NHL.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's obvious that he in an NHL player because he can produce in the AHL?

Maybe he will get there, but there are several examples of AHL players producing in the AHL but not being able to do that in the NHL.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Wow what?

Lindholm is a great example of a guy who has taken a large step forward, even though he has already played more than the mythical 250 games in the NHL.

This thread is making me feel dumber.

Are you and fdw having some kind of competition?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This thread is making me feel dumber.

Are you and fdw having some kind of competition?

These sorts of trite responses are just not going to fly. If you have a point to make, then make it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

These sorts of trite responses are just not going to fly. If you have a point to make, then make it.

Here is my point:

If you think the trajectory of Lindholm and Lazar have anything to do with one another, youre probably an idiot.

Idiotic #### shouldn't always need a countervailing point. Some things are stupid right on their surface.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Lindholm was drafted higher and had a higher upside. Both players taken in the same draft. One just had a breakout season at age 23. The other had a much rougher start to his NHL career and needed to regain some confidence in his offensive abilities because he was rushed to the NHL and has played mostly on checking lines.

Lindholm was an example of a player who wasn't finished developing at age 22/23. He's an example of how writing off players at that age and saying they can't improve is stupid.

If you couldn't follow along Flash it's you who are the idiot. Obviously they aren't the same player, obviously they had different upsides and different struggles in the NHL. But you really have to pretty dumb or oblivious not to realize the point I was making.

One guy says Lazar can't improve because he's already played 5 years in the league. I give an example of a player who has to disprove that point. Pretty simple stuff, nothing idiotic about it whatsoever. Just because I used Lindholm as an example does not mean I'm implying Lazar will be Lindholm, has Lindholm's upside, etc. Lazar is his own player. Writing off 23 years olds and claiming they will never improve is what is idiotic. I mean I know you're a veteran of this board so surely you've seen players break out at age 24, 25, 26. It happens pretty regularly in fact.

[Shazam]

Lindholm has been pretty consistently getting around the 40 point mark since his first season. Lazar's best season was 20 points with all of 6 goals.

Wut.

[sa226]

I skimmed the thread quickly to see if I missed something.

-Poster makes reasonable post, likely slanted with some bias because he likes the kid and hopes that he still makes it.

-Gets called an idiot.

-Has to write a longer post explaining himself. Which anyone could have inferred from the original post.

Its pretty easy to take the most likely scenario and hammer home just how likely it is to happen. Except its a discussion forum, not a courtroom.

There is a long list of much more egregious behavior around here, I just find it so strange when it happens. When not discussing religion, politics et al of course.


Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Well since some of the geniuses here can't seem to handle examples where the players in question are quite different I can easily come up with examples where the players are more similar.

Chris Clark. Any long time Flames fan probably remembers his work as a checking line winger here. Never hit more than 10 goals or 25 points as a Flame. Considered to have fairly stone hands while he was here. Goes to WSH, gets an opportunity higher in the lineup around age 30 and scores 20 goals and then 30 goals.

Breakouts can happen at all sorts of ages. Yes some players are legitimate busts in their early 20's. But Lazar clearly is not one of those, he can play in the NHL. Will he ever break out? I wouldn't put money on it. But those who seem to think its an impossibility haven't followed NHL history very closely it would appear. I'm not saying he will break out. But if you don't think its a possibility you're wrong. If you want to call people idiots for believing players can break out in their mid 20's go ahead, its you who are the close minded one.

[GullFoss]

I think Lazar and Lindholm comparisons are fair. Lindholm was a consensus middle six guy who many felt had a second line ceiling after 5 years in the league. He blew through that expectation to slot into top 3.


Lazar is a consensus AHL-NHL tweener. He could very well turn out to be a career fourth liner or third liner.


I think a Bennett-Lazar-Neal line could be really interesting


- Bennett lacks ability to think the game at elite level, but it otherwise a second line player

- Lazar gas stone hands, but is otherwise a second line player

- Neal is extra lazy, but is otherwise a second line player

Obviously, these three players need to take a trip to the land of Oz so Neal can ask for a younger body, Bennett for a brain with better spacial awareness and Lazar for human hands. But that kind of quest probably has to wait for the off-season.

In the meantime, all three players might compliment each other well. Neal's hands compliments lazar's lack of hands. Bennett and Lazar's work eithic compliments Neal's laziness. If Neal and Bennett play nasty and Bennett and Lazar play with a lot of intensity, the havoc created would make up for Bennett's lack of vision (because no one can see clearly in a storm).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Upside? Still? This is his fifth pro season, and he has about 250 NHL games under his belt. He's had a chance with two organizations. By far the most likely view is that we already know who Curtis Lazar is, and he will never be anything more than a replacement level player. Those guys aren't too hard to find.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

One guy says Lazar can't improve because he's already played 5 years in the league. I give an example of a player who has to disprove that point. Pretty simple stuff, nothing idiotic about it whatsoever. Just because I used Lindholm as an example does not mean I'm implying Lazar will be Lindholm, has Lindholm's upside, etc. Lazar is his own player. Writing off 23 years olds and claiming they will never improve is what is idiotic. I mean I know you're a veteran of this board so surely you've seen players break out at age 24, 25, 26. It happens pretty regularly in fact.

Except he didn't say that.

Read Corsi's post again. Yeah most likely Lazar is not going to turn into Frolik, Lindholm, Chris Clark or any other exceptions out there IMO.

[David Struch]

I could see Curtis Lazar being a Chris Clark type...Ah, I see, already mentioned.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I think Lazar and Lindholm comparisons are fair. Lindholm was a consensus middle six guy who many felt had a second line ceiling after 5 years in the league. He blew through that expectation to slot into top 3.

I like Lazar but the two aren't really comparable at all. Lindholm averages about 18 mins a year for time on ice while Lazar's average is down around 10 or so. Not only does this mean that Lindholm has shown more promise during his playing time but it also means that he's had almost twice the time to develop playing actual games.

It was the right move for Lazar to go down to the AHL to get real minutes and I hope he does well.

Player development is funny. Sometimes good players can get drafted into the wrong situation and have their career ruins while other players who didn't show as much promise get put into good situations and flourish.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Here is my point:

If you think the trajectory of Lindholm and Lazar have anything to do with one another, youre probably an idiot.

Idiotic #### shouldn't always need a countervailing point. Some things are stupid right on their surface.

Ironic.

[TheScorpion]

A Bennett - Lazar - Neal line might have the worst hands in the league.

[Erick Estrada]

Ha ha ha. I knew the moment this thread was started that a select group of posters that dislike Lazar would be all over this and pretty well every single one of them came out of the woodwork as predicted. Thread has gone exactly as I thought it would.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Ha ha ha. I knew the moment this thread was started that a select group of posters that dislike Lazar would be all over this and pretty well every single one of them came out of the woodwork as predicted. Thread has gone exactly as I thought it would.

I thought there might be more. I liked his statement. He needs that confidence.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I thought there might be more. I liked his statement. He needs that confidence.

For sure. Confidence is a big part of it but he has to realize his next chance with the Flames may be his last and I hope he can back up the talk. I always liked his energy level so hopefully with a bit more confidence he could finish enough to be worthy of a bottom 6 role with this team. It's pretty clear he's not likely to be a 20 goal player in his career but he's probably going to have to be a 12-15 goal guy to keep a job in the NHL.