The Great Flames Goalie Debate Thread

[Caboose]

How would people feel about signing Robin Lehner as a UFA?

Let Smith go, and run Lehner and Rittich as a platoon. Lehner has recently begun to deal with his mental health issues, and is posting a .912 SV% for the Isles right now. Even with his issues, he's been around a league average goalie on generally poor teams.

It would still be a buy low situation IMO, because of his mental health issues and his average to slightly below average track record, but I believe with the Flames' commitment to players with his type of issues (Big Ern, Tyler Parsons) that he could improve and be a bargain.

This is the situation that I would personally like to see. Admittedly, I have a soft spot for Lehner, so does this seem reasonable to anyone else, or am I letting a little bias color this suggestion?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

When I watched Kipper calmly absorb shots into his gear I always thought how easy he made it look; Mike Smith on the other hand makes goaltending look really really hard. Nothing looks natural, he goes down on his pads too early, his lateral quickness is non-existent, his belly flops are tough to watch, and why is he is always so deep in in his crease? That fourth goal he let in last night, Weise shoots the puck from the blue line and the two other oncoming forwards are at the top of the face off circle, why the hell is Smith so deep in his crease? There is no sharpness or calmness to his game, it's all really hard to watch. On top of that he routinely lets in just horrifying goals to watch. I have never seen an NHL goalie let in so many bad goals so often. His save percentage is at .888, which with goalies playing a minimum of 15 games, puts him dead last amongst that group, his GAA of 2.99 has him 22nd out of 30 goalies. But hey he battles, makes unorthodox scorpion saves and has had an Ok stretch of games.

And on the other hand you have a goalie that is 4th in GAA (again minimum 15 games started), 8th in Sv%, was the main reason we beat the stupid no good Oilers and has lost a grand total of 3 games in regulation time.

Hmm, seems like a real puzzler here.

You want to minimize Smith's 6 game winning streak as an "OK stretch", fine. He was actually starting to be a lot quieter in his net and do the thingas you say you want.

But the other goalie you describe has never played more than 33 games in a season in North America. So caution and care is a good thing.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Matata

Last year he was great until he was pushed into the #1 spot, then he was average to below average the rest of the year.

This year he had two bad games right after he seemed to be our #1 going forward, Smith then comes back and plays some good hockey taking the #1 spot again, and then Rittich starts playing well again.

Rittich has never looked good when he's the #1 spot. Again, he's young and has the potential to get over the hump, but he hasn't yet and it's still a big question mark for him.

What bad games? He had the one "bad" game against Columbus, but nothing like "Smith" bad. He has never been in the number 1 spot, except for last year. That 4th goal that Smith(Wiess shot) let in last night, that's a Smith special, the kind that he has been letting in all year. I have never seen anything like that from Rittich.

In comparison to Mike Smith, he has been outstanding in every respect, although certainly not perfect. Again, in terms of pressure, the two Edmonton games he had a 1.50 GAA, that is exceptional. You said he "wilts under pressure" that is just not true. In the most extreme pressure he has risen to the occasion.

He certainly has not proven himself as a number 1 goalie, but he has never had the chance to do that this year. Let's see him for 5-6 games in a row at least.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

What bad games? He had the one "bad" game against Columbus, but nothing like "Smith" bad. He has never been in the number 1 spot, except for last year. That 4th goal that Smith(Wiess shot) let in last night, that's a Smith special, the kind that he has been letting in all year. I have never seen anything like that from Rittich.

Dallas wasn't a good game. Chicago wasn't a good game. But no horrific goals, true. The one in Columbus was kind of a whiff.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

What bad games? He had the one "bad" game against Columbus, but nothing like "Smith" bad. He has never been in the number 1 spot, except for last year. That 4th goal that Smith(Wiess shot) let in last night, that's a Smith special, the kind that he has been letting in all year. I have never seen anything like that from Rittich.

In comparison to Mike Smith, he has been outstanding in every respect, although certainly not perfect. Again, in terms of pressure, the two Edmonton games he had a 1.50 GAA, that is exceptional. You said he "wilts under pressure" that is just not true. In the most extreme pressure he has risen to the occasion.

It was pretty clear he was looking like the number #1 going into the Dallas game, it was clear that Smith had run out of slack as a starter and Rittich was getting a look during a good 3 game run. He then goes 0.857 in Dallas & .786 in Columbus, so they go back to Smith who looks good for 6 games and then Rittich plays a solid game in Edmonton after getting bumped ou of the #1 spot.


It's a small sample size for this season, but Rittich has never had a good stretch of games when occupying the #1 spot.

[Erick Estrada]

I still wonder if Rittich is up to handling a full time starter role. Seems to me the more he plays, the more his level of play drops.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

We are getting good enough goaltending right now. That buys us time to evaluate options including whether someone on the roster or in the system can take the reigns.

As far as outside options go, the guy I have my eye on is Quick out of LA. Reasonable cap hit at $5.8 and signed long term.

He has battled injuries for sure. However he's also carried teams to 2 cup rings and can lock it down in the playoffs.

If LA goes full rebuild, that's the guy I would be looking at

The term on his deal is prohibitive in my opinion. Signed until he is 37.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I agree that they probably sit tight.

But being 8th in the league in GAA is not great when you are 3rd overall in shots against.

Confirms for me what everyone's eyesight test confirms, that weak goals are going in.

Don't be fooled by shot totals though. The Flames have improved their defensive play a lot from the start of the season, but that horrendous start still has the team sitting near the bottom of the league it expected save percentage.

Chicago, Florida, San Jose and Calgary at the bottom.

They don't give up many shots, but when they do they're whoppers!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I still wonder if Rittich is up to handling a full time starter role. Seems to me the more he plays, the more his level of play drops.

Possibly, although I have liked his play better this year than last year. This is a big part of why I think the Flames need to be very cautious about handling Rittich, and why I think it would be ill advised to run him as a starter.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Matata

Last year he was great until he was pushed into the #1 spot, then he was average to below average the rest of the year.

This year he had two bad games right after he seemed to be our #1 going forward, Smith then comes back and plays some good hockey taking the #1 spot again, and then Rittich starts playing well again.

Rittich has never looked good when he's the #1 spot. Again, he's young and has the potential to get over the hump, but he hasn't yet and it's still a big question mark for him.

This is a very one-sided way of looking at it.

I don't think he was terrible in both games after he was the #1, and I wouldn't even say that the flames would admit that they considered rittich #1.

Smith on the other hand isn't a major question mark anymore, we know exactly what we are getting which is average to below average goaltending with the chance of backbreaking goals against on routine dump-ins.

Smith has zero rebound control, he is totally un-kipper like in that he is extremely lucky to have good defense to clear rebounds for him.

The eye test says that smith cannot stop a shot without blasting a rebound out at random more than 1/10 times.

[RedHawk12]

The fact that Smith got off to such an awful start has resulted in him being constantly under the microscope. Every goal he let's in is critiqued, all his bad plays are magnified, a lot of his good plays are overlooked.

He's played really well for us the last 6 starts. His game yesterday was not good but it sounds like he got injured. And then of course you see fans calling him "selfish" in the GDT for trying to play through an injury. Players play through injuries all the time in the playoffs, they dont look 100%, they dont play very well but they're commended for having grit, character, etc.. Smith tries to do it and he's selfish? What is he supposed to do? Say "you know what, I dont feel 100%, I'm out"? It's the coaches and trainers' job to make the call and I'm glad they did, but that's not on Smith.

As for moving forward, we have a good thing going with the 1a/1b. Either goalies can get hot and win games for us. This might be an unpopular opinion right now but I think if we end up winning the cup this year, Smith is the one who will help us do it. Just a feeling.

[Textcritic]

The exaggerations and confirmation biases on display in numerous posts in this thread is indeed remarkable.

[Robbob]

Win and you are in is the way to go. The optimist says either Smith finds his game or Rittch takes the bull by the horns. The pessimist will say Rittich is not a number one goalie and Smith will never find his game and is done in the NHL. Realistically the answer is somewhere in the middle.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by David Struch

Just as an example, let's say the deal was Bennett + 1st & 2nd to the Blackhawks.

2019-20:

Gaudreau 6,75 Monahan 6,375 Lindholm 4,85
Tkachuk 8,0 Backlund 5,35 Neal 5,75
Dubé ,778 Ryan 3,125 Frolík 4,3
Mangiapane ,705 Jankowski 1,675 Czarnik 1,25

Giordano 6,75 Brodie 4,65
Hanifin 4,95 Hamonic 3,857
Välimäki ,894 Andersson ,755
Stone 3,5

Crawford 6,0
Gillies ,750

Salary Cap $83,000,000
Cap Hit $82,510,875
Buyouts $1,500,000
Bonuses $665,000
Cap Space $489,125

That's more than I would want to give up for Crawford.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by the2bears

That's more than I would want to give up for Crawford.

It was just an opportunity to get a Bennett trade proposal into every thread on the site. Crawford wouldn't cost that much.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

The fact that Smith got off to such an awful start has resulted in him being constantly under the microscope. Every goal he let's in is critiqued, all his bad plays are magnified, a lot of his good plays are overlooked.

He's played really well for us the last 6 starts. His game yesterday was not good but it sounds like he got injured. And then of course you see fans calling him "selfish" in the GDT for trying to play through an injury. Players play through injuries all the time in the playoffs, they dont look 100%, they dont play very well but they're commended for having grit, character, etc.. Smith tries to do it and he's selfish? What is he supposed to do? Say "you know what, I dont feel 100%, I'm out"? It's the coaches and trainers' job to make the call and I'm glad they did, but that's not on Smith.

As for moving forward, we have a good thing going with the 1a/1b. Either goalies can get hot and win games for us. This might be an unpopular opinion right now but I think if we end up winning the cup this year, Smith is the one who will help us do it. Just a feeling.

The problem is that many of us saw this coming based on smith's play post all-star break last year (even before the injury he wasn't performing very well). It isn't just that he started poorly this season, but more that he played poorly to end last season and the organization did nothing about it.

Tre has to be thanking his lucky stars that peters' system and Rittich have kept this team winning despite smith's efforts.

And he deserves to be under the microscope. The more i rewatch that goal from yesterday the more I believe even I could put the pads on and stop it. I know for a fact that my beer league goalie (who really sucks) could've stopped it no problem.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

It was just an opportunity to get a Bennett trade proposal into every thread on the site. Crawford wouldn't cost that much.

Actually, the post was made to prove the naysayers wrong, the Flames can afford a 6 million goalie and the Bennett contract is the minimum amount for Calgary to send out.

Feel free to create your own scenario, Jankowski + Kylington?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Caboose

This is the situation that I would personally like to see. Admittedly, I have a soft spot for Lehner, so does this seem reasonable to anyone else, or am I letting a little bias color this suggestion?

I wanted Lehner when we got Smith, and I still want him today. I think he’s one of the best “unsung” goalies in the league. Consistently decent despite bad teams and personal troubles, and lots of upside remaining.

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

And he deserves to be under the microscope. The more i rewatch that goal from yesterday the more I believe even I could put the pads on and stop it. I know for a fact that my beer league goalie (who really sucks) could've stopped it no problem.

One goal doesn’t really matter, especially when you’re talking about having “seen this coming” for quite some time. Basically every big goalie we’ve talked about acquiring over the last couple of years (Price, Quick, Bishop, Murray, Bobrovsky, etc) have let in some remarkable stinkers this year. Goals THAT bad happen. Sucks, but they do.

[SixtySix]

I do not subscribe to the "a win is a win, just relax" mentality that a lot of people seem to have. I see the Flames as a top team in this league and I believe everyone on it should be held to a high standard. It's awesome that the Flames are finding ways to win games with consistently poor to average goaltending (in Smith!). But the window to win is open now, and it's important to be realistic about what is likely to be our Achilles heel come playoff time. Smith is simply not the answer. The people who take his recent stats and use it to try to paint a picture that he's coming around and returning to form are fooling themselves. It should not be difficult to tell that Smith is extremely inconsistent, which is basically another way of saying terrible when discussing NHL goaltending. He's extremely prone to letting in comical softies and he just looks off in the net compared to other goalies. You can tell the team plays with more confidence when Rittich is back there too. Even if you believe Smith still has what it takes, it's not acceptable for a top, contending team to just cross their fingers and take that chance. It's critical that the Flames find a reliable goalie.

However, I don't think the solution is to outright hand Rittich the #1 job either. He has not proven his ability as an NHL starting goalie long-term. He has all the potential, and he has certainly earned a look, but I think it would be ideal to have him play about 40 games or so this year, and if the team feels he's the guy heading into the playoffs then he will be the guy. But you don't overload him in December. This is why I can somewhat understand the size of Smith's leash to this point. Though as the season moves on the urgency to solve the goaltending situation needs to increase. Perhaps Treliving would prefer to wait until the off-season to fix it, but may be forced to make a move sooner if he knows the team has a chance to make a run. I don't know what's going to happen, but I trust that the Wizard has a plan.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by iloveicedhockey

Thanks for setting this up. The PGT was not as fun as it should've been after last night's result.

Exactly this. It insufferable reading those kind of posts in PGT after a win! Finally a place for the negativity to be walled off and not infect the good vibes and funny gifs.