City of Victoria to remove statue of John A. Macdonald from the steps of City Hall

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Very true and that arguement goes both ways. It's pretty disingenuous to dismiss a polls findings because the polled group doesn't meet someones imaginary level of knowledge required to participate in the debate.



I would imagine most of those polled are old enough to vote and therefore their opinion is equal to yours or mine.

Should we be setting our policies on the basis of majority polling for an issue that affects only a very small minority of the population?

That notwithstanding, the poll question itself is highly problematic, which is part of why I agree with getbak as to its value. As someone who has no problem with removing some monuments I would not know how to respond to the non-precise question that is posed.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Should we be setting our policies on the basis of majority polling for an issue that affects only a very small minority of the population?

That notwithstanding, the poll question itself is highly problematic, which is part of why I agree with getbak as to its value. As someone who has no problem with removing some monuments I would not know how to respond to the non-precise question that is posed.

This issue affects a huge portion of the population. If it only affected a small portion, would it make national headlines? The magnitude this has is far more reaching than you're giving it credit for.

Sure the wording of the exact question is very suspect and I'll totally agree there. In the context of the article (and the poll is placed about 3/4 of the way down) it gives a lot more insight than just the poorly worded question. Seems like nit-pickery.

[KelVarnsen]

And the plaque has been vandalized.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/l...tue-1.23397671

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

This issue affects a huge portion of the population. If it only affected a small portion, would it make national headlines? The magnitude this has is far more reaching than you're giving it credit for.

Well, that's a broad reaching claim. Who is affected by the removal of this one statue, and how?

Sure the wording of the exact question is very suspect and I'll totally agree there. In the context of the article (and the poll is placed about 3/4 of the way down) it gives a lot more insight than just the poorly worded question. Seems like nit-pickery.

It is not "nit-pickery." If we are to take polls seriously as a gauge of public opinion, then they ought to be structured and presented as honestly and comprehensibly as possible, and this on most certainly is neither of these. I am capable of holding the view that THIS statue of John a MacDonald is rightly removed as part of the conditions of reconciliation pursued by a small selection of the population without believing that every one of his visages should be removed from public life.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t know if it’s a loud and clear message that means anything, though.

And has been brought up in this thread, the lack of education Canadians receive around the subject we’re discussing is alarming.

Exactly...if these monuments were used to provide more context about the controversy surrounding these figures then I am for them staying.

However, the general public has no idea about John A and his direct reports were responsible for in terms of human suffering.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Well, that's a broad reaching claim. Who is affected by the removal of this one statue, and how?


It is not "nit-pickery." If we are to take polls seriously as a gauge of public opinion, then they ought to be structured and presented as honestly and comprehensibly as possible, and this on most certainly is neither of these. I am capable of holding the view that THIS statue of John a MacDonald is rightly removed as part of the conditions of reconciliation pursued by a small selection of the population without believing that every one of his visages should be removed from public life.

Let's turn this back on your original claim then, how small is the affected group and why is that?

Here's another question, what the hell is reconciliation and when are we reconciled? Is this one of those open ended liberal circle jerk feel good buzzwords? I have a feeling that there is no true answer to this and as a tax paying Canadian I'll be funding a never ending reconciliation for which I did no wrong.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Would you have said the same if it was 83% yes?

It’d be somewhat difficult to make a logical point that Canadian education was missing some of our more negative spaces of history and how our icons were attached to those if 83% of people apparently felt strongly enough about it to vote no, so no, it wouldn’t have made sense to say the same thing.

I would’ve voted no, regardless.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Let's turn this back on your original claim then, how small is the affected group and why is that?

Here's another question, what the hell is reconciliation and when are we reconciled? Is this one of those open ended liberal circle jerk feel good buzzwords? I have a feeling that there is no true answer to this and as a tax paying Canadian I'll be funding a never ending reconciliation for which I did no wrong.

As a Canadian taxpayer your economy has arisen from access to natural resources that were transferred through treaties that were unfairly managed. I don't know when reconciliation will be complete...but rest assured you have DEFINITELY benefited from the unfair actions of our Government...so while you bear no personal accountability for the situation...you might want to consider that the 'liberal circle jerk' is the attempt to make amends for some atrocious behaviour that curb-stomped the economy and spirit of indigenous people.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Let's turn this back on your original claim then, how small is the affected group and why is that?

Here's another question, what the hell is reconciliation and when are we reconciled? Is this one of those open ended liberal circle jerk feel good buzzwords? I have a feeling that there is no true answer to this and as a tax paying Canadian I'll be funding a never ending reconciliation for which I did no wrong.

This is brutal, everything in this post is awful.

[station]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Let's turn this back on your original claim then, how small is the affected group and why is that?

Here's another question, what the hell is reconciliation and when are we reconciled? Is this one of those open ended liberal circle jerk feel good buzzwords? I have a feeling that there is no true answer to this and as a tax paying Canadian I'll be funding a never ending reconciliation for which I did no wrong.

Congratulations, this might be the worst post I’ve ever seen on CP. You’ve clearly put zero effort into understanding this issue.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

As a Canadian taxpayer your economy has arisen from access to natural resources that were transferred through treaties that were unfairly managed. I don't know when reconciliation will be complete...but rest assured you have DEFINITELY benefited from the unfair actions of our Government...so while you bear no personal accountability for the situation...you might want to consider that the 'liberal circle jerk' is the attempt to make amends for some atrocious behaviour that curb-stomped the economy and spirit of indigenous people.

How have I benefitted directly? And how would you like me to personally apologize for my non existent actions? I have a hard time apologizing for something I did no wrong in.

Edit:

To the 2 posts above mine, I would still like an answer of what is reconciliation and when are we finally reconciled?

[V]

I think that's the whole point of colonialism. There is no reconciling our way of life and the way we screwed them over. Full reconciliation means the abolishment of most everything we know.

I don't know, has colonialism ever worked anywhere else better than this where the natives don't get bent over? Is there a model we should have followed and can look at as our guide for reconciliation? I'm not being glib, I honestly don't know.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

To the 2 posts above mine, I would still like an answer of what is reconciliation and when are we finally reconciled?

My thought is never....the reserve system (Indian Act) will be next in the next few decades me thinks

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

How have I benefitted directly?

It is one (of many) things that are responsible for your way of life.

Nobody is asking you to personally apologise, but to claim non-indigenous Canadians as a whole didn’t benefit from the historical treatment of our indigenous people at a deep level is insane.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It is one (of many) things that are responsible for your way of life.

Nobody is asking you to personally apologise, but to claim non-indigenous Canadians as a whole didn’t benefit from the historical treatment of our indigenous people at a deep level is insane.

They have suffered and for that I can empathize. Unfairly designed treaties, the horrible treatment of FN during the oka crisis, the starlight tours in Saskatchewan, they have endured atrocities. And as much as these events affect the people directly involved, those stories get passed down and that disdain is never truly gone.

I do honestly feel bad for what has happened to their people, but I also want to ask the hard questions, like what are the goals of reconciliation, when are we done, and what quantifiable benefit do our current actions have?

[spuzzum]

Reconciliation will never occur with the current system in place. Decade after decade, we throw money into a bottomless pit that probably makes things worse than better. It contiously creates a welfare state for an entire populous.

https://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/14...0379208921#ind

In a Canadian system where all citizens of this land are considered equal, this has to be the path forward.

I'd completely eliminate the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs and simply have everyone follow the same rules, laws, and benefits of this land. Whether you're Italian, Sikh, Thai, French, Black, White, or Green, it doesn't matter - you're Canadian. Celebrate your heritage, history and family, but not at the expense of the masses. The only way for reconciliation is to completely eliminate the status quo. It hasn't worked for over a century and never will.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

They have suffered and for that I can empathize. Unfairly designed treaties, the horrible treatment of FN during the oka crisis, the starlight tours in Saskatchewan, they have endured atrocities. And as much as these events affect the people directly involved, those stories get passed down and that disdain is never truly gone.

I do honestly feel bad for what has happened to their people, but I also want to ask the hard questions, like what are the goals of reconciliation, when are we done, and what quantifiable benefit do our current actions have?

You’re not so much “asking the hard questions,” as you are just asking questions that will probably be best answered by looking into the subject.

Here is a great place to start: https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1529183710887

But honestly just... dig in a little bit. I don’t think anyone is asking you to have an in-depth understanding, but “what are the goals of reconciliation” means you haven’t even done the lowest level of research, so start there and see how you feel when you come out the other side.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’re not so much “asking the hard questions,” as you are just asking questions that will probably be best answered by looking into the subject.

Here is a great place to start: https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1529183710887

But honestly just... dig in a little bit. I don’t think anyone is asking you to have an in-depth understanding, but “what are the goals of reconciliation” means you haven’t even done the lowest level of research, so start there and see how you feel when you come out the other side.

I will be reading more into this, so thank you.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Statues =/= books

That's kind of the point that you are missing.

Books are great when you already know you want to learn something. Statues are great for telling you there's something to learn.

You assert the supremacy of books over statues but they serve different functions and engage different people with different learning styles. Not everyone's a nerd who wants to learn from a book!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by SebC

That's kind of the point that you are missing.

Books are great when you already know you want to learn something. Statues are great for telling you there's something to learn.

You assert the supremacy of books over statues but they serve different functions and engage different people with different learning styles. Not everyone's a nerd who wants to learn from a book!

Please tell me this is green text.