[confirmed] Flames will go after Derek Ryan in FA

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by belsarius

This is what gets me the most. I agree a top line capable RW is nice to have, but it wasn't the top 6 that caused last year's problems. 4 of the top 6 had career years, Backlund was just off and Frolik had an off year with injury issues.

The bottom 6 completely #### the bed when it came to adding to the offense, excepting a few weeks in December the third line was productive. The fourth line couldn't shoot its way out of a wet paper bag.

Moves to get that high profile RW is flashy but doesn't solve the depth problem. Getting these mid-bottom 6 guys who are productive at the NHL level is critical to success. The Golden Knights just showed the entire league what a team of "2nd liners" can accomplish. The core is good, its shoring up the support staff that I see as the major failure last year and bringing in guys like Ryan are just the moves that need to happen.

I think what most of us want to see is guys that actually belong in the bottom 6 who have been playing up the lineup like Frolik, Ferland and even Backlund get pushed down and we sign players who belong in the top 6. That would get the fanbase more excited and in my opinion would be more likely to succeed.

If we're all set with exciting upgrades in the top 6 and then we bring in someone like Ryan as a depth signing that's fine. Doesn't feel like it's playing out that way though. Seems like he's the primary target like Frolik and Brouwer were before him, and I expect him to get overpaid. Between Lindholm and Ryan coming in I am also concerned about eating into Jankowski's ice-time. Treliving is good at getting value at the high end but we overpay for the bottom half of the roster. This looks like a continuation of that trend.

[topfiverecords]

All the former Canes and Yotes be ours.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Willi Plett

I can see the reasoning. Strong face off percentage, gets the clean up goals, and puts up reasonable points.

Still, I hope bottom 6 signings like this aren’t squeezing out younger players who may have more long term upside. Shore for example.

Does Shore have more long-term upside than Derek Ryan? He is younger, sure, but has only scored a career high of 6 goals and 14 points in 77 games. Ryan has played only two full seasons in the NHL and has clipped along at a consistent 0.5 pts/gp. I seriously doubt Shore will ever get to that level at any point in his career.

[VladtheImpaler]

The frustration of "do we have to keep signing 30-somethings for the 4th line?" is not really aimed at Ryan - I am sure he is a solid player and would be helpful. The frustration stems from - how horrible is your drafting/player development that you can't put together a bottom line with homegrown "talent"? Ryan might be great, but you are not getting far paying $3M+ for 4th liners and 6th defensemen... Eh, whatever.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Well, this is a very knee-jerk reaction to a likely depth signing. To be honest, Carolina is a team on the verge of success, and the Flames have now brought in some of their better players to play lesser roles on this deeper team. I don't see what the issue is.

Are we really asking these guys to play a lesser role? We traded away a top pairing defenseman and our top line winger. I think Flames have very high expectations for Lindholm and Hanifin with tons of ES and special teams ice time.

[mrdonkey]

For the record, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to sign productive, good players like Ryan. We do need to improve the bottom six.

I do however fear our coach will overuse him as he did in the past, and Ryan will get significantly more money than we’re comfortable with for a 4C.

I.e. the new Matt Stajan.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are we really asking these guys to play a lesser role? We traded away a top pairing defenseman and our top line winger. I think Flames have very high expectations for Lindholm and Hanifin with tons of ES and special teams ice time.

Maybe not a "lesser role," but the incoming players definitely join a stronger supporting cast.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Did you mean to put it that way?

Scores less?

Lindholm has more career points, more career goals, a higher points per game, a higher goals per game and has done it all younger.

Why push this narrative based on the tally of one season? Hell even if you want to use two and average Ferland at 19 goals and 33 points and Lindholm at 14 and 45 he's the more productive player.

It does seem like Lindholm is not much of a finisher yet. And supposedly he was a staple on the Carolina PP in front of the net. He had significantly more PP time than Ferland over the last 2 years.

[Fan in Exile]

The thing is that if we signed guys that have produced above what they get paid and expect them to play a lesser role on our team and occasionally get hot or contribute to a greater level in the playoffs, that would be fabulous. But what Treliving does every year is look at a guy that has been good in a certain role like Frolik or Brouwer, or has unrealized potential (Lazar) and hope that they will out-perform their contract and be able to take on a greater role with the Flames. That's my concern with Ryan. The Canes took a flyer on a player who was 28 and had never played pro hockey in North America and he turned out to be a great depth signing. Signing him as a UFA at 31 is high-risk low reward and will come with expectations and an AAV that Ryan is unlikely to live up to.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by _Q_

More low skill, high character guys that are "good in the locker room". We need more. This is how championships are won.

Late replying but if this is what you think Ryan is you are wrong. He's actually a high skilled guy that didn't get an NHL shot until very late. Even initially when signed by the Canes he was largely in the minors where he continued to put up points.
He has always shown skill, just a matter of people not thinking that skill would translate.
I view him as the new breed of bottom 6 forward where he has a combination of character and a some offensive pop.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

For the record, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to sign productive, good players like Ryan. We do need to improve the bottom six.

I do however fear our coach will overuse him as he did in the past, and Ryan will get significantly more money than we’re comfortable with for a 4C.

Why did Coach Peters "overuse" Ryan? Could it be because he had limited options in his lineup? While in Carolina Ryan played behind Jordan Staal and Elias Lindholm, and ahead of Victor Rask. In Calgary he will be behind Sean Monahan, Michael Backlund and Elias Lindholm on the depth chart, and likely ahead of Jankowski, Bennett and Lazar. I suspect that with more options up front Peters will be less likely to push Ryan up the lineup.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So the solution is to bring in another 30+ year old vet like Brouwer who they already pay $4.5 million to score 6 goals? This guy is going to get overpaid and I would prefer they get a legit top 6 guy that bumps another player from the current top 6 to bottom six to address that issue rather than overpay for bottom six talent.

I think Ryan has a pretty unique player based on his career and can't be compared strictly on the basis of age.
He is 30+ years but not a lot of wear on the tires because he spent most of his career in lower leagues.
Compared to a guy like Brouwer who played a lot of hard hockey for a long time.
Ryan is a tough guy to find a lot of apples to apples comparisons. His journey to the NHL is pretty unique.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are we really asking these guys to play a lesser role? We traded away a top pairing defenseman and our top line winger. I think Flames have very high expectations for Lindholm and Hanifin with tons of ES and special teams ice time.

And banking on / calling Ferland a "top line winger" isn't high expectations?

[gvitaly]

The reason I am not thrilled about Derek Ryan is that the Flames seem to need an offensive difference maker. Instead the Flames keep going after two way players, which is good; however, it also contributes to less creativity with a man advantage, or trailing late in a game.

As for faceoffs, I think they really depend on the team rather than just the centre. If your remember Brouwer had a 57% face off percentage in the two seasons before arriving to Calgary, it dropped to 32% in his first season here.

If the Flames get Ryan, I think he will get to play with Bennett and Jankowski on the right side, same idea as playing Lindholm on the first line. Janko would take faceoffs on the left side and Ryan on the right.

Another reason why I am a bit cautious when it comes to Ryan is that a lot of his offense comes from a good nose to the net. It seems that we have a lot of players that do just that, and not enough elite shots to generate the rebounds for guys like Ryan to score on.

It always comes down to the price is right, but I think Ryan will be looking at 3-4 years at 3-4.5M, which could get expensive for what he brings in my mind. Especially since Peters sees him as someone that can play on the PP and not the PK.

PS: I can't see more than a 30 point season from him in a Flames uniform.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Is he going to be a fourth line player? I mean he averaged just over 15 minutes a night (Stajan by comparison averaged 10, Sam Bennett 14), Looking over his game logs I see Jeff Skinner associated with a lot of his offense, he had power play time...

Those aren't attributes I would associate with a fourth line player.

He was 8th in average ES time in Carolina, so I guess a third liner, but given that he plays center he's a stone throw away from being 10th and where I had him.

He was the fourth highest center in even strength ice time behind the top three centers so yeah ... fourth line center. It's not exactly a murderer's row of talent he beat out in ice time.

[Parallex]

I would say that if the team is intent on signing him then they really ought to buyout Brouwer... I mean, I think they ought to buyout Brouwer regardless but if they bring in Ryan and want to use him in a similar (hopefully not identical) way as he was used in Carolina then what purpose does Brouwer serve?

Tougher guy that can take a regular shift? Garnet Hathaway has you covered. Righthanded shot for one of the PP units? Elias Lindholm and Derek Ryan are here to serve. Brouwer doesn't do anything well and if he loses one of the few things he gets icetime for by default what's the point of keeping him around when you could easily replace the other minutes at a much cheaper price.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I would say that if the team is intent on signing him then they really ought to buyout Brouwer... I mean, I think they ought to buyout Brouwer regardless but if they bring in Ryan and want to use him in a similar (hopefully not identical) way as he was used in Carolina then what purpose does Brouwer serve?

Tougher guy that can take a regular shift? Garnet Hathaway has you covered. Righthanded shot for one of the PP units? Elias Lindholm and Derek Ryan are here to serve. Brouwer doesn't do anything well and if he loses one of the few things he gets icetime for by default what's the point of keeping him around when you could easily replace the other minutes at a much cheaper price.

Let him eat popcorn and take up cap space. Next year they can buy him out and give that space to Tkachuk.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The reason I am not thrilled about Derek Ryan is that the Flames seem to need an offensive difference maker. Instead the Flames keep going after two way players, which is good; however, it also contributes to less creativity with a man advantage, or trailing late in a game.

Interesting because I see it differently. I think they have enough pure offensive talent but lack really quality two way players. I don't think Ryan is a top line player but he's the type of guy I think they need. You need guys up and down the line up who can play two way hockey. On most contending teams even the top offensive guys play complete games.
The Flames right now have too many guys that are only good at half the game.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Does Shore have more long-term upside than Derek Ryan? He is younger, sure, but has only scored a career high of 6 goals and 14 points in 77 games. Ryan has played only two full seasons in the NHL and has clipped along at a consistent 0.5 pts/gp. I seriously doubt Shore will ever get to that level at any point in his career.

With respect to your post, that kind of thinking is part of the problem.

Instead of seeing what Shore can do in an expanded role (meaning no one expects him to play all 82 games) with the Flames, why are we so willing to hand Derek Ryan a roster spot and expect him to be the solution "because he put up better numbers under different circumstances" than the other guy did?

Certainly smells like another Troy Brouwer situation to me.

I'm sure that this team would perform the exact same if we didn't take him July 1st, and waited until maybe, I don't know, October at the least to start handing out roster spots to guys that have never played within this organization.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Tougher guy that can take a regular shift? Garnet Hathaway has you covered.

Does he?
He was largely ineffective last year and part of the problem with the bottom 6 lines. They just went out there, tried hard, and got nothing done.

I think Hathaway is a high character guy but I don't think he has shown he can effectively take a regular shift.

Ryan has.