[News] Flames hire Bill Peters as the franchise's 19th head coach

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Exactly. Or any number of other reasons.

The bottom line is that a single player's stats, in and of themselves, do not shed any significant light on the coach. Literally every coach ever, from Bowman to Gilbert, has had players blossom under them, and players struggle under them. Sometimes it is because of the coach, or partially because of the coach, and usually it is not about the coach at all.

Building an argument on a singular example like this, and hammering away on it as if it is some nugget of wisdom that others are missing, so it should be repeated over and over, is beyond weak. And screams of propping up an agenda.

Exactly. Saying it could have something to do with coaching is fair but saying it most likely does is something different.
Speculation and discussion is fine but it sure seems that many people are just going with whine and panic instesd

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by cannon7

You know where fans also don't have a say in the outcome? The games themselves. So why even bother watching? We should all just shut up and find something else to do. Right? What a great attitude. The Flames should hire you for PR.

Hey, hey, you can be a fan. But be nice about it? Ok? Losing is just another way to look at winning. Can't we just be happy for the other team? Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, now, do we?

You need to get a grip on life. If you can't see the difference between cheering for a team sport and winding yourself into a frothy mess on an anonymous message board, then you may need to seek counseling for what is likely the beginning of a disturbing downward spiral.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Since you brought up Staal...



I tried pointing out that the guy only got 50 ish points out of Eric Staal, franchise player.

Canes fans complained about Peters turning Staal in to a middling winger. Obviously Staal is capable of 40 goals and over 70 points under Boudreau.



That somehow met a lot of resistance and dismissal here though.



One guy even suggested there were several players with career years under Peters. Even though Staal was his top scorer those first two years with 50 ish points and nobody has touched 70 points during his tenure.

Oh my. Have you seen the canes roster the first two years of peters tenure there?

Staal was paired with young talent that wasn't ready to contribute and drew the toughest assignments from opposition. In minny, Staal plays with strong forwards and Boudreau gives him soft minutes in the offensive zone.

Apples and hand grenades. Billy boy didn't have the personnel to maximize staals talents.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by sempuki

You need to get a grip on life. If you can't see the difference between cheering for a team sport and winding yourself into a frothy mess on an anonymous message board, then you may need to seek counseling for what is likely the beginning of a disturbing downward spiral.

Come on. Who's frothing?

Look, that was a terrible season we just went through. Not only did the Flames not make the playoffs, many of the games lacked excitement. Watching pointless d-zone cross crease passes, countless aborted five-man rushes, zero passing attempts in the neutral zone, a totally useless power play and whiffed saves from all the goaltenders. Listening to post-game interviews with the coaches where they deflected questions and answered others with "I don't know". And Brouwer.

Yeah, people are frustrated. Even the GM said that the team didn't meet expectations.

Maybe, just maybe, getting a good effective coach is actually fairly straightforward and mostly obvious. Maybe it's not some dark impenetrable subject.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Come on. Who's frothing?

Haha. Lots of people from what I can tell.

We got one guy in here saying that Treliving wouldn't even interview AV or Sutter because he knows they are smarter than him.

Haha. Talk about butt hurt.

[nik-]

I'm a frothy mess

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

See, I think, using a Gulutzan as an example that
- the roster was good enough to make the playoffs
- many, many individuals underperformed
- a few (top line and Tkachuk) did well
- the ones that performed well are the elite talent or fortunate enough to be the winger playing with 2 elite players
- almost everyone else on the whole team underperformed
- no it didn’t balance out
- badly coached team lost too many games

I am asking with Peters if this may be a concern.
Anecdotally he has many of the same general criticisms as Gulutzan

I mean, we can talk about GG, too, if you want, but that wasn't why I brought up Flames examples and what I meant by "balancing out". Obviously collectively the results didn't add up, but IMO half the players played at or above their standards, and half below.

I was using purely individualistic comparisons for a very exclusive argument. You won't find me disagreeing that Gulutzan was not the right coach for this team for the reasons you've listed (and probably more).

I think that there is concern in a franchise player becoming temporarily mediocre

I’m not saying the guy is a bad coach. But there are a few big red flags. And I don’t think you can simply look past them. You absolutely have to look deeper, but I have not seen them as summarily dismissible

It's fair to raise questions, but your only support for that specific argument was Eric Staal, who was already under performing and looking disinterested playing with a below average roster before Peters arrived.

I don't believe it's a question for concern. Buff laid it out pretty well.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Apples and hand grenades. Billy boy didn't have the personnel to maximize staals talents.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sure it wasn’t a great roster. Jeff Skinner also dropped that year from 33 goals and 53 points in 71 GP to 18 g 31 pts in 77.

Put 2 good players on a line they should be able to get points, even with a plug on the other wing. See: Gaudreau, Monahan

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Come on. Who's frothing?

The person I quoted. I was replying to a thread of discussion, and the person he was replying is relevant to my comment.

Don't like the hire all you want. Not hugely impressed by it myself. But I come to this board to find insightful commentary, and people unable to control their emotion driven outbursts is not quality content. If you're not adding to the content of this site you're subtracting.

Everyone's got emotions. Everyone's got ####ty opinions. We get it. Is not a requirement you beltch those emotions and opinions in public. I'm glad if it feels soothing to you to vent, but it's not something I appreciate.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by sempuki

You need to get a grip on life. If you can't see the difference between cheering for a team sport and winding yourself into a frothy mess on an anonymous message board, then you may need to seek counseling for what is likely the beginning of a disturbing downward spiral.

You don't see me telling other posters to shut up and take their negativity (or positivity?) elsewhere, do you? No. You don't. Why? Because I know where I am: a place where discussions are supposed to happen. If you show up here confused as to what a message board is, then your views on what people should or shouldn't be posting may be mocked for their inherent logical fallacy.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The point is for everyone to exercise an ounce of humility in expressing their own opinions about this. I have all the time in the world for those who are sceptical about this hire, have good reasons for their scepticism, but are also self-secure and aware enough to recognize that their own opinion is also extremely limited and likely very flawed. I have no time for those who insist that their opinions are facts, and that selecting the right coach in this coaching search was an obvious choice that every fan endorsed.


No. Being honest about the things that we do not know is not "crap." It is the truth. The thing is, in this instance it is an admission on behalf of the ENTIRE fanbase that honestly does not have all the facts. It is a good step towards learning, and a position that I certainly respect a good deal more than those who are certain about everything they know.

But we will never have all the facts so where do you draw the line on forming an opinion? And this is a message board not a discertation maybe you should let go of the obvious hyperbole posts and move along as all the facts are not needed. Obviously very few if any insist their opinion is fact, that's on you and how you read it when people are just venting.

If you have no opinion because you don't have all the facts why are you here other than to call out other posters? Oh sorry, challenge.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm a frothy mess

Hot.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I mean, we can talk about GG, too, if you want, but that wasn't why I brought up Flames examples and what I meant by "balancing out". Obviously collectively the results didn't add up, but IMO half the players played at or above their standards, and half below.

I was using purely individualistic comparisons for a very exclusive argument. You won't find me disagreeing that Gulutzan was not the right coach for this team for the reasons you've listed (and probably more).



It's fair to raise questions, but your only support for that specific argument was Eric Staal, who was already under performing and looking disinterested playing with a below average roster before Peters arrived.

I don't believe it's a question for concern. Buff laid it out pretty well.

Yeah I get that people don’t like the single player example.

I think the point of it was that franchise players don’t grow on trees. Many players can get 50 points, few can get 70 plus. And most coaches try to get their best players to be their best players, and build around their capabilities

To say they didn’t have top talent, Skinner had scored 33 g in 71 games. He is a supplementary example, he also dropped when Peters arrived.

When Hartley came here, many players saw huge steps in their development. He improved stats of a lot of guys that struggled under Brent. In late 13-14 and in 14-15 we saw individual overachievements and collective success.

Darryl pulled Iggy and a bunch of scrubs from a 7 year playoff drought into a contender, right?

I get all of the arguments and excuses why Staal did not produce under Peters.

I don’t dismiss them, and I certainly don’t think that the coach as a factor can be summarily dismissed either.

For that matter, Staal and Skinner are just data points.


The real question is whether Bill Peters got everything he could out of that Canes roster, individually and collectively?

We can’t know. We know he had a budget roster and young, and we know they were unsuccessful. There are valid reasons.

We also know that there is another coach out in Viking that you know has gotten the most out of teams collectively in his last 2 stops.

And our GM passed on him. So this guy must be better in his mind.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by cannon7

You know where fans also don't have a say in the outcome? The games themselves. So why even bother watching? We should all just shut up and find something else to do. Right? What a great attitude. The Flames should hire you for PR.

Hey, hey, you can be a fan. But be nice about it? Ok? Losing is just another way to look at winning. Can't we just be happy for the other team? Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, now, do we?

yeah, except one actually has something to judge during a game.

Peters hasn't even been hired and people are working themselves into a lather...

and even if he gets hired, people have no idea who his assistant coaches will be...there remains the possibility that he could hire some good people or, like Gallant, find himself in a situation where he can apply lessons learned from Carolina...

I'll wait until Peters actually coaches a few games for the organization, with whatever changes they make to the roster in the offseason, before making a judgment.

Carry on tilting at windmills...

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by sempuki

The person I quoted. I was replying to a thread of discussion, and the person he was replying is relevant to my comment.

Don't like the hire all you want. Not hugely impressed by it myself. But I come to this board to find insightful commentary, and people unable to control their emotion driven outbursts is not quality content. If you're not adding to the content of this site you're subtracting.

Everyone's got emotions. Everyone's got ####ty opinions. We get it. Is not a requirement you beltch those emotions and opinions in public. I'm glad if it feels soothing to you to vent, but it's not something I appreciate.

It's hardly frothing. cannon7's been around forever, he's frustrated like a lot of us are.

It ain't frothing until the caps lock is on and the banninations start happening.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by sempuki

The person I quoted. I was replying to a thread of discussion, and the person he was replying is relevant to my comment.

Don't like the hire all you want. Not hugely impressed by it myself. But I come to this board to find insightful commentary, and people unable to control their emotion driven outbursts is not quality content. If you're not adding to the content of this site you're subtracting.

Everyone's got emotions. Everyone's got ####ty opinions. We get it. Is not a requirement you beltch those emotions and opinions in public. I'm glad if it feels soothing to you to vent, but it's not something I appreciate.

The post you quoted was sarcasm directed at the logic behind another posters "if you don't have anything nice to say..." argument. I hate to disappoint you, but there was no froth involved.

And here you are making the same "if you don't have anything nice to say..." argument. Don't you see that you fundamentally misinterpreted my post and as such the whole argument that I shouldn't post such things is meaningless? Not saying you don't have a right to such opinions, just that asserting that I shouldn't express opinions that you fundamentally misunderstand seems...well, maybe I should just let you figure out the rest.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

yeah, except one actually has something to judge during a game.

Peters hasn't even been hired and people are working themselves into a lather...

and even if he gets hired, people have no idea who his assistant coaches will be...there remains the possibility that he could hire some good people or, like Gallant, find himself in a situation where he can apply lessons learned from Carolina...

I'll wait until Peters actually coaches a few games for the organization, with whatever changes they make to the roster in the offseason, before making a judgment.

Carry on tilting at windmills...

For the record, I have no problem with this view. Want to wait and see? Be my guest. I have no choice but to join you since that's how time and causality work. I certainly hope Peters benefits from all this doubt.

But Bill Peters, despite all appearances, does not exist in a vacuum. He is a real person, who has actually coached hockey teams before. It's fine if you want to wait to see him do it some more, but that doesn't mean we can't already learn from history.

[-TC-]

If he coaches a quick d-zone exit and an aggressive forecheck, I’m in.

If it’s more slow, static, possession hockey, I’m out.

Looking forward to seeing what Tre can get done at the draft and over the summer.

[Freeway]

You can be a good coach but a bad fit for a group.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I get the feeling you and other posters don't even know what an opinion is in the first place. Let me help you with that:

I know what an opinion is. And they can be challenged. Particularly if they are formed on questionable knowledge or information.
I don't know how many times this needs to be stated. NO ONE is saying you can't have an opinion they are merely challenging if that opinion is well formed or not.