Francis with Kerr: Who is going?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Locke

Trading Johnny and Hamilton?

"This team loses a lot because it doesnt have enough talent! Lets take the most talented players and then trade them....."

Brilliant stuff.

Flames management, and outside observers, seem to think a lack of talent isn't the only issue. Friedman made a comment on the problem a week or two ago and said something along the lines of "they tried to address it by bringing in outside guys, Brouwer and Hamonic." It being character/emotion/buy-in. If bringing in secondary guys to address it didn't fix the problem, you have to look at changing up the core. And that means moving talented players.

Obviously, you only make a deal if you think you're getting the same quality of player back. I'd suggest, for example, that Hamilton and O'Reilly are players of roughly the same quality. Making a deal with those two as the principles may well make the Flames more effective overall.

[Vinny01]

I can’t see the Flames trading Gaudreau without completely destroying the rebuild. There are not any players available I can think of where a 1 for 1 deal makes sense?

So then you are looking at packages where Gaudreau is the best player in the deal and that is not going to end well.

I am okay trading Hamilton since I believe he can get what we need in return and we are in a position to trade a Dman for a forward. The Flames can’t score so trading our only ppg player makes no sense.

Johnny is often emotional and seems highly engaged in games. I don’t feel he is one of the players Francis is considering exposing.

[Roof-Daddy]

I'm all for trading anyone if it makes the team better.

You will have a hard time finding a trade for Gaudreau where the return actually makes the team better IMO.

The guy takes up what? 11-12% of the cap? Yet he's in on like 40%of the teams offense?

How do you even justify wanting to trade that?

The guy is doing his bloody job and then some, it isn't his fault the continually inept Flames management can't build any depth behind him.

...and saying you can't win with Johnny is one of the dumbest things I've ever read, when you go back and look and see that he's won at every level he's played at until now and been a HUGE part of those winning teams.

Yeah the NHL is a bigger dragon to slay, but he's already proven he's capable of being a huge offensive contributor at this level and if the team isn't winning it's not because he's holding them back.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

This could have been a good thread but has turned into a don't trade Johnny thread.

How about we talk about what other players that might be on the list . Kerr was pretty adamant during a road trip weeks ago that he saw stuff that needed to be dealt with in off season.

I think top of list is Hamilton and Ferland.
Personally think flames top 6 centres are to passive. I wouldn't have re-signed Backlund.

Cases could be made that Bennett and Brodie should be moved , but I'm not sure they fall into the Francis and Kerr list.

I don't think they were talking about Brouwer. They have both said that he has been a mess for the flames but they do say he tries.

• I don't think Backlund - they wouldn't have re-signed him if it was. And he loves to be a flame more than anyone. Backlund in my view is the kind of vet that needs to be wearing an A.
• I think Brouwer has to be one of them. He's wearing an "A", he's a vet, he's been terrible.
• I think maybe Brodie, but he get's too much ice team for a guy that "doesn't care." If anything, he cares too much, gets too much ice time.
• I think maybe Bennett, but I sure hope note. But he does fit the characterisation at a high level. But again, I think the Gully-Bennett relationship is what's killing him.

So two guys - Brouwer and brodie/hamilton/bennett. Which one of the three?

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

All I can say to that is I'm glad you're not in charge of the chips.

You're entitled to your opinion, but Monahan is going to be a 40+ goal scorer moving forward in my opinion. I get he's lacking elsewhere, but this is another potential turn-off in this discussion that is not going anywhere near the underlaying problem.

That's fine. The fun thing about this forum is the wide range of opinions.
I think you need to relax on attacking people though.
I've barely waded into any of this discussion, or any real discussion for most of the season, so I'm not sure where you get off on labeling me chicken little.

[Sylvanfan]

To me I entertain trading Gaudreau because I don't think the Flames have a core that can be an elite team. They've over spent to get what they have in terms of assets snd it's ultimately not very good.

So do you keep him and trade him for peanuts later...or hit the reset button now and get enough assets to try and build the better team?

Guys like him and Monahan and Hamilton all have good vslue but 4 to 5 years left on theit current contracts. I do think management has to take a hard look at things and realize how poorly they have spent assets in the last 3 years.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If bringing in secondary guys to address it didn't fix the problem, you have to look at changing up the core. And that means moving talented players.

Still think this notion you're putting forth is devoid of the context that the core is young and still learning and the leadership from the coaching staff stinks.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes that is my point. The fact that those suggesting trading Gaudreau can’t name a player they’d target is very telling.

Unless they ant to tear the whole thing down. Then why stop with Gaudreau.

I don't think it is telling at all. Trade speculations are rarely accurate but I'll oblige

From Philly I would target guys like Ghost, Konenczy, Povorov (with an assumption that Calgary is trading one more D in another deal)
From NYR I would target guys like Andersson, Chytil in addition to a roster player or two (Kreider, Hayes types)

I would look for a package of 2 skilled roster players than can play in the top 6 plus a prospect or high pick.

Anyways my intent wasn't to turn this into a trade Johnny thread, as the broader point was that the Flames have too many passive guys and to change the problems, they probably need to change something significant with the core. And I don't think Johnny should automatically be withheld from that possibility.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by edslunch

So are you saying the Flames can’t with him or can’t win without an elite two way player? Those are two different statements.

Good point. I don't think they can win with him as their BEST player and he therefore may also be the best bullet in the chamber they have to try and acquire that guy they do need.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/the-big...ames-mattered/

This seemed like a pretty ominous discussion to me but I haven't seen it anywhere on the site. If I'm wrong I'll just delete this topic and move on.

Francis saying some "players" didn't care if they won or lost, it was all about their stats ... he seemed to imply more than just goals and assists ... possession?

Thoughts?

My thought is that Eric Francis is clueless.

[getbak]

This idea of not winning with Gaudreau got me thinking about the 2013 World Juniors.


Going into the tournament, Gaudreau was having a breakout sophomore season. He had 23 points in 14 games played at BC prior to the World Jrs and had only been kept off the scoresheet in one game.

Despite that, Phil Housley decided to start Gaudreau on the third line, with no PP time. Rocco Grimaldi was the small man on the top line who was going to lead Team USA to victory (remember when there was actually a debate about which one would be the better NHLer?).

Team USA started the tournament with an 8-0 win over Germany and Gaudreau had no points.

Then, their next two games were against Russia and Canada. They lost both games 2-1, and Gaudreau had no points. Things weren't looking good for the Americans or the young Flames prospect.

Prior to their final group-play game, Housley shook up the lines and swapped Gaudreau and Grimaldi's spots in the lineup and put Gaudreau on the PP. Team USA defeated Slovakia 9-3. Gaudreau had 2 goals and 1 assist, with 2 PP points.

Their next game was the Quarterfinal against the Czech Republic. USA won the game, 7-0. Gaudreau had a PP hat trick.

Next, was a rematch against Canada in the Semifinal. USA won 5-1. Gaudreau had 2 goals and 1 assist.

Team USA won the Gold Medal with a 3-1 win over Sweden. Gaudreau was held off the score sheet in the Final.


In the end, Gaudreau was named to the Tournament All-Star team. He led the tournament in goals, with 7. He led Team USA in points, with 9 (tied with Trouba and Miller).

[Muta]

I would be cautious about speaking in absolutes here regarding who's coasting / packing it in and who isn't. None of us on this board are in that inner circle. We like to think we are, but we aren't. The only time we'll really be able to somewhat guess properly is what a player or coach officially leaves the organization.

I would hate having my name out there as someone who just wanted to 'stat pad', when I, and all my teammates, know that is not the case. What a ####ty situation to be cast into.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by getbak

This idea of not winning with Gaudreau got me thinking about the 2013 World Juniors.


Going into the tournament, Gaudreau was having a breakout sophomore season. He had 23 points in 14 games played at BC prior to the World Jrs and had only been kept off the scoresheet in one game.

Despite that, Phil Housley decided to start Gaudreau on the third line, with no PP time. Rocco Grimaldi was the small man on the top line who was going to lead Team USA to victory (remember when there was actually a debate about which one would be the better NHLer?).

Team USA started the tournament with an 8-0 win over Germany and Gaudreau had no points.

Then, their next two games were against Russia and Canada. They lost both games 2-1, and Gaudreau had no points. Things weren't looking good for the Americans or the young Flames prospect.

Prior to their final group-play game, Housley shook up the lines and swapped Gaudreau and Grimaldi's spots in the lineup and put Gaudreau on the PP. Team USA defeated Slovakia 9-3. Gaudreau had 2 goals and 1 assist, with 2 PP points.

Their next game was the Quarterfinal against the Czech Republic. USA won the game, 7-0. Gaudreau had a PP hat trick.

Next, was a rematch against Canada in the Semifinal. USA won 5-1. Gaudreau had 2 goals and 1 assist.

Team USA won the Gold Medal with a 3-1 win over Sweden. Gaudreau was held off the score sheet in the Final.


In the end, Gaudreau was named to the Tournament All-Star team. He led the tournament in goals, with 7. He led Team USA in points, with 9 (tied with Trouba and Miller).

What a talentless loser! How fast do you think we can trade him?

[GullFoss]

At the bottom of all this, Tre is going to ask himself, "is player x unemotionally engaged, or unemotionally engaged because of Gully?" Otherwise, we're going to risk running into another Marc Savard - Greg Gilbert scenario, where we trade a #1 defenseman or centreman for nothing.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Locke

Trading Johnny and Hamilton?

"This team loses a lot because it doesnt have enough talent! Lets take the most talented players and then trade them....."

Brilliant stuff.

Right. Because all we would get is rusty hubcaps. Yeah, that’s what people are saying. Good take.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Good point. I don't think they can win with him as their BEST player and he therefore may also be the best bullet in the chamber they have to try and acquire that guy they do need.

To win a championship you need him (or other elite scorer) AND elite 2 way guy IMHO. Moving Johnny out seems like a sideways move especially since he is unlikely to return that elite 2 way player by himself.

Tough situation.

[browna]

If you trade Johnny it's not for the reasons Francis mentions. Because I don't think they apply to him at all.

Ferland, Bennett, Brouwer, maybe Hamilton, probably others. For ice time, wanting to play or stay on a certain line etc etc not just goals and assists. And not everything is an untenable situation where you have to get rid of offenders either.

Also, I love Jagr but he was trying to play for his reasons at the end when he was struggling through 2 injurirs and he was told by BT to get healthy before you play again.

Heck maybe throw Monahan into the mix as by definition he shouldnt have played as injured as he was. If you make the argument he cared more about getting to a goal total then doing what was best for the team(which isn't true at all), that would fall under this definition too. So a lot of subtitles and perspective to consider.

[Vinny01]

Gaudreau is the only true superstar on this team and moving him likely makes the team even more mediocre.

I guess it truly depends on if he is one of these players Francis is referring to (doubtful). You can’t 100% discount the possibility Gaudreau could ask to be moved due to the recent health issues his father is dealing with. Again who knows but if either of those is the case then a trade may be possible. Personally I think he is a Flame next year and pushes for 100pts.

If he is moved though I would be okay with the Flames hitting a little refresh on the rebuild and target younger pieces in return.

Say the Flames move Johnny for a package around Provorov and then move Dougie for Marner. Moving 2 25 year olds for 2 21 year olds pushes the timeline back a couple of years but still lets the team contend with a core built around Tkachuk and Monahan.

[mrdonkey]

To me, Johnny strikes a lot of the same chords as Phil Kessel. Great player and one you absolutely can win with, but not if he’s the one driving the ship. Toronto never went anywhere when Kessel was “the guy”. Flash forward to Pittsburgh where he’s a secondary star and he’s absolutely a big reason that team is a consistent threat. I think Johnny could accomplish something similar in an environment like Philly, but probably never achieves anything with the weaker forward core we have here.

I’m of the opinion that Tkachuk is the only guy you take off the table. This team needs a major shakeup, if not a top-down rebuild. The pieces in place are just not strong enough for a deep run.

[dammage79]

Well there's some definite Hyperbole going on surrounding the defense of Gaudreau.

Who the hell is calling him a talentless loser? No one. Thats who.

So one side is completely closed minded about trading Gaudreau, thats fine.

While other are at least trying to converse about the idea. I honestly have not seen ANYONE actively wishing to trade Gaudreau. Just open to the idea.