Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[zamler]

The Calgary Flames are dividing us.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think it is system-related, but don't see this specifically as the problem. Like I said above, it is more about overthinking and overplaying on the part of the players while in the zone, and not necessarily tied to a blueprint by coaches for moving the puck.

Actually, if they are still overthinking and overplaying it 167 games into Glen Gulutzan's system, I would say that only bolsters the argument that the problem is closely tied to the blueprint by the coaches. Whatever the hell Gulutzan actually wants should be second nature by now.

[zamler]

It takes 169 games for the system to kick in.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by zamler

The Calgary Flames are dividing us.

"You're tearing me apart, Gulutzan!"

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You don't get why I might be upset at fielding accusations of being a propagandist?

Not a fan of Eric Francis jokes I see. You’re upset, I forgive you for missing it.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, if they are still overthinking and overplaying it 167 games into Glen Gulutzan's system, I would say that only bolsters the argument that the problem is closely tied to the blueprint by the coaches. Whatever the hell Gulutzan actually wants should be second nature by now.

Oh, they've got his system down pat. The other team dumps it into the Flames zone, then one D picks it up, while the other D follows, backward pass, first D cycles back, then another backward pass, which is all the time the other team needs to do a full line change, and then the Flames attack in a Flying W, and pepper the opposing goalie with shots through wide open lanes, and do not score, because that's not how you score in hockey.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Didn't mean any offence.

I'm just saying the Flames really only have one defensive defenseman in their top nine defenders.

Thanks, and no offense taken.

But Hamonic turning into Bobby Orr certainly would help this team since Flames can’t score. I don’t know about all these offensive defensemen you’re seeing because after the 2 you mention, the next highest guy has 4 goals.

[Table 5]

I work with data quite a bit myself from a visualization perspective and one of primary things that I find is important is to assess and rank your data. You need to to understand what's driving the story, what adds detail, and what's just noise.

I find that advanced stats carry too much weight in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think calling them "advanced stats" is a bit of a misnomer, as that implies that they are somehow better or more useful than basic stats if you are smart enough to understand them. To me, they are more akin to secondary stats...ie things that add nuance and detail to the big picture, but at the end of the day still rank behind the basics in terms of importance. As dumb as they are, Goals and Goal Differentials will always trump things like Shot-Counts or High-Quality Chances. You may win admiration with the latter stats, but you win hockey games with the former.

However, I also think that we're starting to pull a bit of a Gully. We're so focused on stats and numbers, to realize that the solution may have nothing to do with statistics at all. The missing element may be the human touch. The problem with Gulutzan may be one of personality and leadership style. You don't go to war for a spreadsheet, you go to war with a leader. I never go the impression from the guy that he is someone that commands attention when he walks into a room.

Above strategy, above player utilization, above all else, this may be a team that just needs a General more than anything right now.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I work with data quite a bit myself from a visualization perspective and one of primary things that I find is important is to assess and rank your data. You need to to understand what's driving the story, what adds detail, and what's just noise.

I find that advanced stats carry too much weight in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think calling them "advanced stats" is a bit of a misnomer, as that implies that they are somehow better or more useful than basic stats if you are smart enough to understand them. To me, they are more akin to secondary stats...ie things that add nuance and detail to the big picture, but at the end of the day still rank behind the basics in terms of importance. As dumb as they are, Goals and Goal Differentials will always trump things like Shot-Counts or High-Quality Chances. You may win admiration with the latter stats, but you win hockey games with the former.

However, I also think that we're starting to pull a bit of a Gully. We're so focused on stats and numbers, to realize that the solution may have nothing to do with statistics at all. The missing element may be the human touch. The problem with Gulutzan may be one of personality and leadership style. You don't go to war for a spreadsheet, you go to war with a leader. I never go the impression from the guy that he is someone that commands attention when he walks into a room.

Above strategy, above player utilization, above all else, this may be a team that just needs a General more than anything right now.

Such a great way to put this...thx.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I work with data quite a bit myself from a visualization perspective and one of primary things that I find is important is to assess and rank your data. You need to to understand what's driving the story, what adds detail, and what's just noise.

I find that advanced stats carry too much weight in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think calling them "advanced stats" is a bit of a misnomer, as that implies that they are somehow better or more useful than basic stats if you are smart enough to understand them. To me, they are more akin to secondary stats...ie things that add nuance and detail to the big picture, but at the end of the day still rank behind the basics in terms of importance. As dumb as they are, Goals and Goal Differentials will always trump things like Shot-Counts or High-Quality Chances. You may win admiration with the latter stats, but you win hockey games with the former.

However, I also think that we're starting to pull a bit of a Gully. We're so focused on stats and numbers, to realize that the solution may have nothing to do with statistics at all. The missing element may be the human touch. The problem with Gulutzan may be one of personality and leadership style. You don't go to war for a spreadsheet, you go to war with a leader. I never go the impression from the guy that he is someone that commands attention when he walks into a room.

Above strategy, above player utilization, above all else, this may be a team that just needs a General more than anything right now.

Completely agree with all of this.

I feel that at the end of the day, it's 'all' important. Stats, analysis, and intangibles. You can't sway any which way too much in building your view, and you should take into account all of it.

[MRCboicgy]

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2017/division

Again, just look at the goal differential column...

[zamler]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2017/division

Again, just look at the goal differential column...

Goals for is even more telling only 3 teams are worse.

[Mr.Coffee]

there's no stat though that shows how hard players work.

And that's a real thing that matters. So...

[Calgary4LIfe]

They were both terrible. This team was neither an offensively capable, and couldn't play tight defensive hockey either to compensate.

[Machiavelli]

Amazing to sort by goal differential. It just doesn't lie

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I work with data quite a bit myself from a visualization perspective and one of primary things that I find is important is to assess and rank your data. You need to to understand what's driving the story, what adds detail, and what's just noise.

I find that advanced stats carry too much weight in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think calling them "advanced stats" is a bit of a misnomer, as that implies that they are somehow better or more useful than basic stats if you are smart enough to understand them. To me, they are more akin to secondary stats...ie things that add nuance and detail to the big picture, but at the end of the day still rank behind the basics in terms of importance. As dumb as they are, Goals and Goal Differentials will always trump things like Shot-Counts or High-Quality Chances. You may win admiration with the latter stats, but you win hockey games with the former.

However, I also think that we're starting to pull a bit of a Gully. We're so focused on stats and numbers, to realize that the solution may have nothing to do with statistics at all. The missing element may be the human touch. The problem with Gulutzan may be one of personality and leadership style. You don't go to war for a spreadsheet, you go to war with a leader. I never go the impression from the guy that he is someone that commands attention when he walks into a room.

Above strategy, above player utilization, above all else, this may be a team that just needs a General more than anything right now.

Quoted for truth. This man knows.

[Strange Brew]

Great post Table 5. Leadership is about so much more than systems or procedures, especially in a small group like a hockey team.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Amazing to sort by goal differential. It just doesn't lie

It's definitely pretty telling. You can basically look at any season over the last century that's listed, and see that almost without fail, the best teams are in green, and the poor ones are in red. Outside of straight up wins/loses, I'm not sure there's any other stat that correlates that directly with regular season success.

I mean it's an obvious stat (because hey it's the damn point of the game to score more than your opponent), and there's no easy fix to get your team to go from red to green, but I do think it can be a useful bellwether of where your team truly stands. It was the one giant red flag with the Flames all year long...we were supposedly in playoff contention, but we had horrible GD from the start. It was a recipe for failure.

[Machiavelli]

^ Amen. When the fancy stats suggested the team was due, goal differential painted the true picture that the Flames aren't good enough

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by zamler

The Calgary Flames are dividing us.

I tried really hard to follow the discussion though the last 10 pages and it was not amusing in the least. For instance, we agree that Gulutzan sucks, but we have arrived at the conclusion through different paths on different timelines, thus we are divided about which path was the correct one to follow to get to the conclusion for the conclusion to be valid and analyzed correctly. How very, very, very stupid.

There has been a gazillion of these terrible discussions throughout the year. I remember a lot of the same craptastic discussions about discrepancies in analyticts vs results going on when we made the playoffs under Hartley, only then everyone was happy about the results most of the time so it didn't really turn into this ridiculous crapfest it has now.

This has not been a good season to be a Flames fan, and if Gulutzan is back behind the bench I will not pay up to watch this team next season, and I don't even care if he is the problem or not at this point. It may not be a correctly carried out analysis, but at least it's the result.

I'm so fed up with this damn season.