Truculence...?

[1qqaaz]

Don't waste assets on truculence.

The flames need skill. The Flames need speed. They need players who are good defensively.
I'm tired of the Flames wasting assets on truculent pieces, because they never last more than a few seasons. I am also tired drafting 6'7 Hunter Smiths when 5'10 Brayden Points are still on the board.

The Flames are the 6th lowest scoring team. Lets focus on that before even thinking about truculence.

[MrMike]

Starts with solid coaching. A lethal power play. Timely hot goaltending, and lighting a fire under their arse when they get complacent.

Or um trade for lucic I guess

[CsInMyBlood]

Oh poor Tanner Glass. He has only made $8.6 million dollars in the NHL doing the fighting thing.

Is this not the exact reason we had him in the lineup? We the Flames paying him to score goals? He knows what his job is.

Man people are really getting this whole scenario wrong. I keep reading how nobody would do anything. It's a BS view. Go watch the vid again and stop making shiz up because Kypreos talked some stupid crap.

[jlh2640]

God dam I miss Jarome Iginla and Robyn Regehr. What happened when Ryan Clowe pulled s#*% like that. Or Dustin Fatso .... I remember well. That’s the problem. You need players that can play physical and be useful. Jarome was a stud, but one of the biggest things he doesn’t get the respect for was how good of fighter he truly was. I love Gio. But his is no Jarome in his prime. Not even close.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

God dam I miss Jarome Iginla and Robyn Regehr. What happened when Ryan Clowe pulled s#*% like that. Or Dustin Fatso .... I remember well. That’s the problem. You need players that can play physical and be useful. Jarome was a stud, but one of the biggest things he doesn’t get the respect for was how good of fighter he truly was. I love Gio. But his is no Jarome in his prime. Not even close.

We have a Jarome type player, only problem is. he's only 20 and didn't play last night. Even at 20 I think he would have gone full "payback" mode.

As much as I love Gio, as a captain he really needs to find a mean streak once in awhile, a retaliation cheapshot once every now and then won't kill his legacy as a nice human

[Psytic]

We could always target Evander Kane and Ghallager if we want to become more annoying and tougher to play against.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

God dam I miss Jarome Iginla and Robyn Regehr. What happened when Ryan Clowe pulled s#*% like that. Or Dustin Fatso .... I remember well. That’s the problem. You need players that can play physical and be useful. Jarome was a stud, but one of the biggest things he doesn’t get the respect for was how good of fighter he truly was. I love Gio. But his is no Jarome in his prime. Not even close.

Yeah those were the good old days. Getting bounced in the first round year after year or missing the playoffs altogether. All that toughness really made the team a legit contender.

Personally I don't care if the team is tough or not. I just want it to be good and win enough goddamn games to get 100+ points and have a chance to go deep in the playoffs.

How tough are the Pens? Or the Preds? Or the Lightning?

Don't care about truculence. Just build a good team already. It's only been 30 years FFS.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah those were the good old days. Getting bounced in the first round year after year or missing the playoffs altogether. All that toughness really made the team a legit contender.

Personally I don't care if the team is tough or not. I just want it to be good and win enough goddamn games to get 100+ points and have a chance to go deep in the playoffs.

How tough are the Pens? Or the Preds? Or the Lightning?

Don't care about truculence. Just build a good team already. It's only been 30 years FFS.

To be fair

Mess with Crosby or Murray and Oleksiak or Reaves would decapitate heads. The Preds have Watson and Mcleod to do the same. Tampa gets away without true "truculence" because they are big and extremely skilled(same goes for Washington) but lets see what they do come playoff time.

After last years debacle in Minnesota Treliving should have known the leadership and coaching on his team are creampuffs and he did nothing to address it.

Burke must be going absolutely berserk seeing his most truculent player is barely 20 years old. sic and sad

[ReinhartonD]

We should never want to build a roster to defend against Lucic--the Greasers would walk away from that boat anchor in a heartbeat if the contract didn't prevent it. I love it when he's out there because it's tying one hand behind their back. I hope he plays 25 minutes a night against us next year.

The only way I want a "tough guy" is if it's someone like Jarome--skilled and can beat the crap out of someone who is cheapshotting our guys. They're rare; maybe Tkachuk has some of that, though to be fair, Jarome finished what other guys started, while Tkachuk often starts things, which we could have used more of in the last six weeks.

[CliffFletcher]

This isn't 2005 any more. The game has changed, and face-punching doesn't help you win in today's NHL. Would the Oilers beat the Pens, Bruins, or Lightning in a face-punching contest? Yes. Would they beat any of them in a playoff series? Nope.

Time to move on, people. Just because the Oilers are stuck in the past doesn't mean the Flames have to be.

[Erick Estrada]

Yep. In a blatant attempt to save face of the GM who obviously isn't getting fired Oilers media is saying the Chiarelli did what fans wanted and built the Oilers to be big and tough to compete with the California teams and now the game has shifted to a speed/skill game and they are too slow.

You think Chiarelli wouldn't drive Lucic to the airport himself if he could get a taker for the face puncher and his $42 million contract? Flames didn't miss the playoffs this season because they lacked truculence.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Intimidation IS a thing in the NHL. Fighting IS a thing in the NHL. It can't be too comfortable out there trying to be all skilled and driving the play when there may be a body or two on the other side that you may feel is a total loose canon and who can beat you to a bloody pulp before the refs can jump in.

Should the Flames go out and sign a bunch of pure enforcers just to patrol the ice a few odd shifts a game? Of course not, and I don't believe anybody is saying that. Are the Flames too soft and don't have any answers for the really 'tough' teams out there that have size and nastiness? Yep, that's at least what I think, and I am probably not alone.

The McGrattans and so on aren't in the league any longer, but there are still a lot of tough guys out there that can play a decent game. Our biggest rivals - even though they mostly suck - are the Edmonton Oilers. They have idiots like Lucic, Kassian and Nurse out there who are known for jumping guys and doing stupid things out there. When you have a guy that can actually put a little scare into them, they don't do that.

People roll their eyes and think: "So what? Just take the PP and win the game!". Sure, I wish it was that simple. I would 100% agree with this take if it was a pure goon like Steve MacIntyre out there. Flames would just skate circles around him, try to hit him at every opportunity, and they would know that the refs would jump in the instant MacIntyre even thinks about retaliating and kick him out of the game. That doesn't happen with those aforementioned guys in Edmonton, it doesn't happen with guys like Reaves. It doesn't happen with most of the existing 'tough guys' out there. Those guys are happy to go and cause commotion and make themselves relevant, but they are hockey players first and the refs aren't keeping an eagle eye on them.

What happens? They go out and play with impunity on the ice. It is fine to lay out a huge hit on a guy like Brodie and injure him. It is ok to pick up Gaudreau and just chuck him. It is ok to punch an opposing goalie that is making fantastic saves in a game, or slash a defencemen that is also the captain.

People then say that a guy like Stone should have stepped up. Or Brouwer. Or Giordano. What for? Look at Glass. Glass is tough as nails (remember him beating on Kassian and basically rag-dolling him?). Imagine a non-fighter fighting Lucic. Great, so now Stone is out for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, while Lucic sits in the box for 5 minutes, smirking and knowing he just did his job and threw the Flames of balance and is in their heads now.

That's what happens. That's why I think Stewart should have played - I think he would have at least been in Lucic's head a bit, or at least it would have been him fighting Lucic.

Lucic never acted tough like that last season when Engelland was patrolling the ice (and doing a good job as a defencemen while he was at it). Sure, they fought twice that season, but Lucic never once made his presence felt other than those two fights. Flames had nothing to worry about out there that year. Now they do.

For as long as fighting remains in the league, and for as long as there are 'huge hits' (whether clean or not, they can injure players), and for as long as there are 'after the whistle stuff', intimidation is an actual thing in a sport with physical play.

Treliving knows this and for a long time both he (and Feaster, actually) have been saying that the Flames need to get bigger and tougher to play against. What he also says is that it needs to come with some skill and speed as well. That's why this organization has been spending assets on drafting some big players that seemed to have a decent amount of skill as longer term projects that just haven't panned out. This team has come a heck of a long way from 3 or 4 seasons ago - I imagine their average size is larger now, and they seem to have more guys that play a rough game - but outside of Stewart and Glass, they have nobody in the organization that can really take on Nurse and Kassian, much less Lucic. It is just unfortunate that those guys don't abide by any sort of 'code' out there, and there lies the problem. All three of those guys turn into utter chickens out there when there is somebody patrolling.

The only thing that has changed from 2005 is that the outright goons are gone. There are still a lot of fighters in this league.

[ricardodw]

I find it interesting that after I have taken numerous beatings on this board for my theory on team toughness that there are a lot of posters saying basically the same thing.

I was not pro goon... basically my theory came down to having only 3-4 players with crazy hockey skills on the team that would avoid physical play.

Gaudreau, Brodie Monahan .... there is no more room on a successful roster for any other players that are not willing to play in your face hockey.

Backlund, Frolik, Versteeg, Kulak, Anderssen, Jankowski, Magnipane and Jagr are all on this years roster and any contact they have is incidental. There is no chance that they would jump to to a teammate defense. That is not to say they are not good hockey players, but they need to be on a lot tougher team to contribute to team success.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Intimidation IS a thing in the NHL. Fighting IS a thing in the NHL. It can't be too comfortable out there trying to be all skilled and driving the play when there may be a body or two on the other side that you may feel is a total loose canon and who can beat you to a bloody pulp before the refs can jump in.

Should the Flames go out and sign a bunch of pure enforcers just to patrol the ice a few odd shifts a game? Of course not, and I don't believe anybody is saying that. Are the Flames too soft and don't have any answers for the really 'tough' teams out there that have size and nastiness? Yep, that's at least what I think, and I am probably not alone.

The McGrattans and so on aren't in the league any longer, but there are still a lot of tough guys out there that can play a decent game. Our biggest rivals - even though they mostly suck - are the Edmonton Oilers. They have idiots like Lucic, Kassian and Nurse out there who are known for jumping guys and doing stupid things out there. When you have a guy that can actually put a little scare into them, they don't do that.

People roll their eyes and think: "So what? Just take the PP and win the game!". Sure, I wish it was that simple. I would 100% agree with this take if it was a pure goon like Steve MacIntyre out there. Flames would just skate circles around him, try to hit him at every opportunity, and they would know that the refs would jump in the instant MacIntyre even thinks about retaliating and kick him out of the game. That doesn't happen with those aforementioned guys in Edmonton, it doesn't happen with guys like Reaves. It doesn't happen with most of the existing 'tough guys' out there. Those guys are happy to go and cause commotion and make themselves relevant, but they are hockey players first and the refs aren't keeping an eagle eye on them.

What happens? They go out and play with impunity on the ice. It is fine to lay out a huge hit on a guy like Brodie and injure him. It is ok to pick up Gaudreau and just chuck him. It is ok to punch an opposing goalie that is making fantastic saves in a game, or slash a defencemen that is also the captain.

People then say that a guy like Stone should have stepped up. Or Brouwer. Or Giordano. What for? Look at Glass. Glass is tough as nails (remember him beating on Kassian and basically rag-dolling him?). Imagine a non-fighter fighting Lucic. Great, so now Stone is out for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, while Lucic sits in the box for 5 minutes, smirking and knowing he just did his job and threw the Flames of balance and is in their heads now.

That's what happens. That's why I think Stewart should have played - I think he would have at least been in Lucic's head a bit, or at least it would have been him fighting Lucic.

Lucic never acted tough like that last season when Engelland was patrolling the ice (and doing a good job as a defencemen while he was at it). Sure, they fought twice that season, but Lucic never once made his presence felt other than those two fights. Flames had nothing to worry about out there that year. Now they do.

For as long as fighting remains in the league, and for as long as there are 'huge hits' (whether clean or not, they can injure players), and for as long as there are 'after the whistle stuff', intimidation is an actual thing in a sport with physical play.

Treliving knows this and for a long time both he (and Feaster, actually) have been saying that the Flames need to get bigger and tougher to play against. What he also says is that it needs to come with some skill and speed as well. That's why this organization has been spending assets on drafting some big players that seemed to have a decent amount of skill as longer term projects that just haven't panned out. This team has come a heck of a long way from 3 or 4 seasons ago - I imagine their average size is larger now, and they seem to have more guys that play a rough game - but outside of Stewart and Glass, they have nobody in the organization that can really take on Nurse and Kassian, much less Lucic. It is just unfortunate that those guys don't abide by any sort of 'code' out there, and there lies the problem. All three of those guys turn into utter chickens out there when there is somebody patrolling.

The only thing that has changed from 2005 is that the outright goons are gone. There are still a lot of fighters in this league.

This man gets it. His posts are always well thought out.

[zamler]

Kopitar, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Wheeler, McDavid, Giroux, Voracek, Hall etc. are not knuckle dragging bruisers but they play a hard, fast physical game. So yes you do need truculence just not the caveman variety.

[slcrocket]

There is a difference between "truculence" (and trying to build a team that fits that description) and having a guy who will stand up when someone needs to stand up and keep people in line. The former is an outdated concept in today's NHL (do you think that the real contenders in this league worry about being tough enough or just about putting pucks in the net?), while the latter is absolutely essential.

The problem with the Flames is that we keep trying to do the former and yet still haven't addressed the latter. Fill a team with at least three lines of skilled guys who can put the puck in the net (we are presently missing one of those lines), and have a guy on the back end who can thump you if he needs to so that people don't take liberties with your top performers.

And fix the ####ing power play. How a team can have a player like Johnny Gaudreau (who literally creates space with his speed and stickhandling) on the man advantage and can still be 4th worst team in the NHL on the PP is still just incredible to me. How many coaches would LOVE an asset like that on special teams and we can't figure out what to do with him.

[Classic_Sniper]

How can this team need more truculence? Are people blind here? We're the 2nd most penalized team in the league and we're #2 in fights. We have plenty of truculence and we have plenty of guys who step up to fight.

This fanbase drives me nuts sometimes with the old school dead puck thinking. No wonder why this organization has been so mediocre for decades. This is the team we deserve because it's the team this fanbase wants, all character, all truculence and no talent. You'd think we'd be screaming for more goal scoring because we're a bottom 5 team in goals. But no, we've got people demanding more truculence because Glass was the one who had to fight Lucic for 1 game out of 82.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by slcrocket

And fix the ####ing power play. How a team can have a player like Johnny Gaudreau (who literally creates space with his speed and stickhandling) on the man advantage and can still be 4th worst team in the NHL on the PP is still just incredible to me. How many coaches would LOVE an asset like that on special teams and we can't figure out what to do with him.

Don't know if it's Gulutzan's stupid preference to play left-shot/LW but I've been saying for 2 years now that Johnny should should play RW on the PP, He did in Dubuque and he anchored the NCAA's top PP at Boston College for 2 years while playing the off wing.

Edit, youtube link won't work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiHOCrQ81MM&t=747s

[Travis Munroe]

Let's also keep in mind that teams play their 4th line in different roles. GG likes to roll 4 lines. Other teams see their 4th line stapled to the bench until the top 3 need a breather.

If we rolled 3 lines we could afford to have a Stewart(fighter) Hathaway (instigator) and X (combination of fighter, instigator, skill)... basically what I thought Brouwer could be when his role changed.

They don't need to play much or risk losing games but the way our roster is built, there is no 1 elite line and I don't think we need it. 3 strong lines who can get hot at any moment and score can play close to equal minutes and then some grinders/brusiers when needed or when the other team sends its 4'th line out.

Stajan is a class act but if he can't produce in the top 3 lines which has passed him by, then he really shouldn't be playing. Same can be said for Lazar...great kid but doesn't fit the make up of how the team should be.

We have plenty of truculence and skill.... had Stewart played, Hamonic, Tkachuk, Ferland, Bennett, Brouwer are all guys that can play a tough game and play their role.

Frolik - Monahan - FA Signing
Tkachuk - Bennett - Gaudreau
Jankowski - Backlund - Ferland
Stewart - FA Signing - Hathaway

Bennett takes some stupid penalties and he can play 4th line C as a wake up call for a game while Jankowski sees promotion 2nd line C and Brouwer draws in from the press box to fill 3rd line wing.

[taxbuster]

Isn't the whole point of playing a guy (esp on the PP) on his off-wing to put his stick closer to the centre of the ice - and therefore more centred on the net - so that a one timer has a wider angle on the net? It also prevents shots taken from the edge from pounding right back out the far side if they miss, too. Dunno why GG/DC's insistence on playing righty-lefty only.